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Hunter Breed View Profile |
I have some contradicting info!
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| 04/09/08 02:02am |
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Hi bob View Profile |
Message To: Hunter Breed In reference to Message Id: 1695701
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| 04/09/08 01:06pm |
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Hunter Breed View Profile |
Message To: Hi bob In reference to Message Id: 1696054 I have some contradicting info!
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| 04/09/08 03:46pm |
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PrinceSushi View Profile |
Message To: Hunter Breed In reference to Message Id: 1696227 I have some contradicting info!
Both frequent chapparal, not deserts. Sand holds no moisture! Your need either baked soil or coconut fiber mixed in. At the very least a 50/50 amount. Thats only ONE problem with your tank. Alligator lizards are KNOWN to kill and eat blue-bellies. They do it quite frequently in the wild. So what do you think is going to happen by sticking them in an area where they can’t get away from each other? The only reason your current set up is working is probably because your lizards are too stressed to care. Instincts tell them to stay away from each other or trouble, possibly death, will occur. Your being very selfish in sticking them together. Stop thinking about what appeals to you and think about what is best for your animals. If you can’t accept the fact they shouldn’t be housed together, you should not own them. Also, do some research before even getting lizards or acting like you know so much, because you clearly don’t. |
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| 04/10/08 10:03am |
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Hunter Breed View Profile |
Message To: PrinceSushi In reference to Message Id: 1697395
Let me explain. 1st. Those pics were only of one half of my cage! I purposely keep one half open for them to just soak up light. the other half is full of rocks and vegetation for them to hide in or climb on. 2nd. you mentioned how they are not desert lizards. Congratulation you actually made an intelligent statement! while that is true im sure you know that southern California is covered with both Southern Alligators and Blue bellies, Southern California is considered a semi desert! and the nature habitat by my house ( where both lizards are thriving, and where i caught them both) consist of very DRY and hard packed soil and also ..............SAND dunes! The sand in my tank was taken exactly from where i caught them. The blue bellie i caught under a shrub which was surrounded by the sand. to make sure that was its home i went back to the same spot several days in a row and always found several blue bellies there. the alligator was caught a hundred yards away in some very dry shrubs. ALL I DID WAS TAKE THEIR ORIGINAL HABITAT WITH THEM!!!! 4. as far as the two species together I have heard both stories, some say it wont work some say there is no problem. So guess what? That’s because both stories are right, some times it works sometimes it doesn’t and in my case it does. SO BACK OFF!!!!! And to actually say that the alligator will eat the blue bellies is absurd all you have to do is glance at the picture and realize it would physically impossible for my alligator to eat that full grown blue bellie. there is always plenty for my lizards to eat they would never get to that point any ways 5. and lastly as for its only working cause they are stressed or using instincts to stay away from each other is complete crap. it been six months now and i think that’s plenty of time to unwind. they also are always together! they lay out on the same rock together and sleep in the same spot together, never have they hissed or puffed up or shown any type of aggression! i truly believe they enjoy each others company! if i ever see a different opinion than mine at the most i might share my own OPINION with them. you might actually HELP some one if you use a little common decency |
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| 04/11/08 02:55am |
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PrinceSushi View Profile |
Message To: Hunter Breed In reference to Message Id: 1698507 I have some contradicting info!
So what, you have a 50/50 chance nothing or something will happen? Your only willing to take that chance becuase you are selfish. Why cram those two together otherwise? Its all just to please yourself. Prove me wrong! Give me a reason why mixing these species together NEEDED to happen, other than the fact you are using them as guinea pigs? I don’t want an answer like "because they can live together" I want an answer that clearly explains why they needed to live together. Whenever I ask this question of someone, I get stupid answers that only show how selfish people can really be. If you can give me an answer to satisfy my question, that proves this had to be done, I will shut my mouth. Did I say they always kill THEN eat a blue belly? No, I said they are capable of killing AND eating blue bellies. Just because they kill something, doesn’t always mean they eat it. However,I’ve seen full grown alligator lizards munch down on full grown mice as well, which are pretty much the same size as an adult blue belly. No, it is not complete crap. Alligators and blue bellies are not "colony" lizards. For the most part they live solitary lives. Your going against what is natural to them. It DOES stress them out. They do not enjoy being around each other. That just your human interpretation because your too narrow minded to actually study how the brain of most lizards works. Clearly two people here have told you that you are being selfish, and clearly you were told it before coming here. Why even bother to post if you are going to ignore what others say? I believe the reason you came here, is actually because you were tired of hearing people on other forums tell you that your just going to kill the poor things. If your so dead set on keeping those two together, you best get used to people hounding you about it. Just like the other member, I will end by saying this; "if u want a dead lizared u should keep them in the same cage" |
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| 04/11/08 06:53am |
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Hunter Breed View Profile |
Message To: PrinceSushi In reference to Message Id: 1698572 I have some contradicting info!
to answer youre other question as to "WHY" well of course its because i enjoy having them both, they are both very interesting pets is there any other reason to have a pet, not because im some sicko that likes to see animals suffer, which is clearly not happening at any level. Now it you’re turn since just enjoying a pet isnt enough, tell me what is? whats youre great need that you have keep to youre pets? and yes youre theory is complete crap my pets show absolute no signs of stress, if they were really stressed out they would not always be together, it because animals are good at adapting , just like certains lizard can adapt and be tamed! obviously after they are tamed then their owners do not make them feel stressed because they adapted and know that their owners are NOT harmful or a predator thats what they MY lizards did with eachother. Really I am not making this up! Even after this whole ordeal i would be the first to admit i was wrong if any of your claims held up. I think its funny that you are calling me narrow minded, ive alread stated that i know what your saying has some truth to it. but to claim you know that for a fact that is completly 100% true No exceptions You cant get any more narrow minded than that, you could probably convince you’re self the earth is still flat |
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| 04/13/08 04:02am |
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PrinceSushi View Profile |
Message To: Hunter Breed In reference to Message Id: 1701061 I have some contradicting info!
I didn’t ask you why you keep them both, I asked why you feel the need that you MUST house these two together. I saw your post on the fence lizard section. Your excuse is that you can’t afford or provide room another tank; knowing that you still caught a second lizard. Just another selfish act. You are just trying to rationalize your mistake. Yes I do enjoy my pets, but before I do I make sure they are healthy and 100% safe in their environment. My enjoyment will eventually come, but not until they feel secure(they aren’t secure if there is a lizard that could easily kill them also in the tank). If I know I can’t afford vet fees or equipment fees, I do not catch or buy the lizards. If you knew anything about animal or reptile psychology, you would know that sticking together like that is a defense. If you’ve ever been to a pet store or opened up a box of animals that had all been shipped, they huddle like because their instincts tell them they are in danger. If an animal is healthy and feels safe, it should not do that. Its like fish that school. The more animals around you in an open area, the less likely you are to be grabbed and killed or eaten yourself. Like I stated above, even the "tamest" lizard will always be cautious of their owner and their surroundings, most just don’t realize it because as humans we try to "humanize" everything. Hey, it is 100% true until proven false. After going to college and studying biology, animal behaviors, and now ecology; I start training to become a California Fish and Game Biologist and Legal Officer at the beginning of next year. I didn’t just pull all this information out of my buttmunch nor did I come across it myself. I’ve spent years studying it and soon I will make the jump from a hobby, to a career. Why don’t you call fish and game to get some resources from wildlife vets and biologists? Go to a college professor that specializes in one of the three classes I mentioned. They can give you all the information you need pertaining to animal behavior. Luckily for you and the citizens of California we have one of the largest diversities of animals in one location which also requires quite a few officers, biologists and scientists to care for it. One of them should be able to at least give you 5 minutes. Quote: haha thats funny! ya i dont think anyone will bother you about it let alone get arrested, but dont let princess sushi know that, she would prob shoot you for it if she had the chance haha whats even funnier is she probably values your lizards life more than yours.
If you want to start a "We hate PrinceSushi" thread go ahead and do it in the appropriate section of reptic zone. If you want to spam your own or my threads with posts like that, go ahead, but you should refrained from bothering others with our "feud". Don’t act so childish about this. While I don’t think that particular member has much to worry about, you can get arrested by illegally touching native animals. I know quite a few people who got arrested for maybe an hour and then fined just for picking up a snake or lizard so that it didn’t get run over. In one case, they(2 people) had unknowingly picked up the protected southern rubber boa to photograph it. A passing officer stopped and when he saw what was happening, he was basically forced by law to take them in to record what had happened becuase they didn’t have a license and they were "messing" with a protected species. Even though they didn’t mean harm, he had to hand out the punishment(a large fine) to be fair. |
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| 04/13/08 02:44pm |
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Hunter Breed View Profile |
Message To: PrinceSushi In reference to Message Id: 1701562 I have some contradicting info!
I still though feel the same about every thing else, the problem i have with your story is well it would make sense if they only huddled together every time i had to open the cage to feed, or clean or something because of their fear of me, but thats not whats happening even when they wake up in the morning and want to soak up some rays they could easily do that and still be on opposites sides of the cage to give space but they still choose to stay together even when there is no threat, just to make things clearer they are not literally next to each other constantly, but they do spend the majority of the day together. I feel i have already given more than enough evidence to show they wont harm each other physically well i didnt prove it, my lizards did you cant argue that ,but stress is a little bit harder to prove, this is not the first time ive owned either lizard and what ive seen both in in the wild and captive is when they are threatened they will either run or stand its ground. they alligator will open its mouth pretty wide and hiss, the blue belly will either puff up like a balloon and try to stand tall or maybe do its push up routine. but these are not just last minuet defense systems, they will do this at the slightest threat, now remember im not saying they just dont fight or try to kill each other im saying they dont even think themselves as a threat, wouldnt you think at the very least if there was any stress one of them would try to intimidate the other to "say back off" at the very least they might hiss or puff up, not even to fight, but just to say "hey dont mess with me" even i was suprised cause the alligator was already settled into his new home when the blue belly came along and still Nothing now of course i know being captured and put into new surrounding has to be stressfull at first, but today after all this time i think they have passed the point of suspision or worry back to youre question, what i was trying to say last time is that your are right!! of course i do not have some sort of need where i absolutely have to keep them together , i also dont have a need for my dog, she would probably be much happier living on some farm or ranch where she could run outside all day long, but she doesnt and i still own her and i definetly dont feel bad about it. but again back to you! if you feel so strongly about animals mental comfort then how can you even own reptiles? i mean prob most of your wild caught ones will never be tamed which mean they will ALWAYS be stressed out by you’re presence. you are being so HYPOCRYTICAL it is the same situations as mine except YOU are the other lizard!!! also you havent told me you’re "need" yet why you even keep them in the first place since just enjoyment cant be the only reason |
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| 04/14/08 03:22am |
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PrinceSushi View Profile |
Message To: Hunter Breed In reference to Message Id: 1702480 I have some contradicting info!
Your true in what you said about the allie but the "push ups" the blue bellies do are strictly territorial and for mating. Knowingly, a blue belly wouldn’t do that with a 5+ foot human walking straight up to them. Most of my animals are rescues or they were unknowingly gifted to me. I’m serious. The only non-rescue or non-gift I have is a rat, which is a domestic mammal that is capable of feeling love and showing affection. My wild caught animals are rarely touched. Maybe once a month, sometimes less, and mainly for examination reasons(I sometimes photo graph them on the same day, but not every time). They do get stressed by my presence which is why they get their own room where they rarely see anyone, except for maybe 5 minutes when I drop pre-prepared food or water in the cage. Owning animals isn’t always about having to touch or be around them all the time. Its about keeping them safe. I feel its enough to just be able to learn and be around them, why do I have to actually touch them in order to feel enjoyment? I get it just by knowing they feel 100% content and that they are in a better place. Don’t misunderstand me. The wild would be a better place but not all animals can be released, such as domestic dogs and cats. To compensate I buy the best stuff I can and I get my animals the best care they can have. What is my need to have most of the animals/reptiles I have. To save their lives, thats why. My dog. No one wanted her. If I hadn’t gone in and adopted her, she would have been put to sleep the next morning. She had been suffering so much and clearly she had something beautiful hidden under all her sorrow. Now I have a happy little dog who is no longer starving to death. She is happy and she does love her home because she is capable of showing and feeling more advanced emotions than reptiles. She eats, she plays, and she acts like a normal dog now.
Here is one of my current rescues. A 2 year old female bearded dragon. She is pictured on the right and my 18 month old rescued male is pictured on the left. This is from January. She has since gotten a bit bigger, but the side effects of her mistreatment are obvious. While she is not able to tell me if she is feeling happy in her home her growth, appetite, and vet reports tell me she is doing much better than were she previously was.
If any one wants to tell me I should have left my animals where they were, they are rather sick. Without me they would have died. I’m a very selfless person. Its my biggest flaw actually. Sometimes I care to much about the animals or too much about people, and not enough about myself. I give and give and give and I always check multiple times to be sure I’m not being hypocritical. Your statement was that I stress my lizards out. Its true, so to fix this I try to avoid them except for necessary husbandry. Am I still so hypocritical? I can tell you are tired of arguing and I know I am. Clearly we won’t change each others mind. I will leave you alone, but please do some things for me. Please do not promote housing these lizards together. If you want to house them together, thats fine, but don’t promote it since there is a HIGH probability that one or both will just end up dead. Please do something about your tank and substrate. Even though you found them on sand, the allie most likely would have left as soon as the weather started to warm up and moisture was harder to come by.Ignoring the fact that one may get killed by the other, sand can kill captive reptiles prematurely. In the wild its not a big deal as they die sooner than they are even capable of living, but they also breed a lot more. In captivity they are enclosed and expected to live longer. Rather than possibly getting killed pretty fast by a hawk they will suffer for a long time if the sand causes an impaction. In order to ensure their health and long life, getting something less likely to cause impaction. |
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| 04/14/08 02:01pm |
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Elgario View Profile |
Message To: PrinceSushi In reference to Message Id: 1702875
Your alligator lizard will definitely not eat that big blue belly because the alli is only half grown!! From my experience on catching these lizards, I’ve never seen them under the same rock or log even if they occupy the same area. I can only believe that the blue belly avoids the bigger lizard. I’ve also mixed them together again many years later (different lizard) just to study their reactions and that’s when I saw the alligator lizard approach the blue belly(s) with the side-to-side head swaying movement including the tail tip shake, I know this familiar prepatory alligator lizard attack on fast moving prey. Before I could even begin to separate them, the targeted blue belly took off to one corner of the aquarium. I never try to mix them ever again. When your alligator lizard grows and is hungry, you risk losing a beautiful blue belly (by the way if your blue belly has a blue throat, its a male) In your case, you could put a partition between the two. You can surrender 3/4 of the space to the blue belly, because they are more active. The alligator lizard will settle in a small space if you provide a good hiding place proper nutrition, heat and light. Alligator lizards are really solitary and will fight each other even if they’re all females. Definitey do not put males together. They attack each other especially when competing for food. Also do not put snakes (gopher snakes and kingsnakes) within the same room. Even if they’re out of sight, the lizard, especially the alligator lizard, will pick up their scent and they do stress out! My lizards became edgy and kept trying to dig out their glass cages. Their sense of smell are much more powerful than ours, and the scent of their natural predators puts them in alarm mode. Finally, you should put more ground cover for you lizards. The beach sand will work, but given a choice they like ground with good traction and hiding spots. At least put big rocks or a large piece of wood. The blue belly only drinks from droplets so you should put some cactus or a succulent plant their to be sprayed with water. If your lizards are always moving about trying to get out of the cage, and not settling on a spot then you know you haven’t established the right habitat conditions. I hope my sharing of experience help. I didn’t read thru all the thread because it was too much personal. For all, if any of you want to give away your alligator lizard away, please let me know. Legally, you cannot release them back into the wild because of possible human contamination. I have seen alligator lizard die of some cold. It was probably from me. Reptiles can die from human germs, and the dessert gopher tortoise is a good example. |
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| 04/18/08 06:24pm |
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Hunter Breed View Profile |
Message To: Elgario In reference to Message Id: 1708259 I have some contradicting info!
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| 04/19/08 02:01am |
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Aliceinwl View Profile |
Message To: Elgario In reference to Message Id: 1708259 I have some contradicting info!
I wouldn’t recommend dividing the tank and giving the al 1/4th. Although more secretive als still need room to roam around, and you can’t establish an appropriate thermal gradient in a space that small. I’m not aware of any human to reptile transmission of disease. Human colds are usually viral, reptile respiratory infections are usually bacterial and brought on by innapropriate environmental conditions or from exposure to other sick herps. In the case of the desert tortoise the bacteria responsible for the respiratory disease affecting some populations were introduced from released captives. The captive tortoises contracted it through exposure to exotic tortoises. They are also prone to respiratory infections when improperly housed or exposed to environmental conditions that they’re not adapted to cope with. I have a kingsnake and gophersnakes housed in the same room as my alligator lizards. As long as the snake cages are not adjacent to the lizard cages, the lizards could care less. |
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| 04/19/08 03:57am |
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Reptiman123 View Profile |
Message To: Aliceinwl In reference to Message Id: 1708736
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| 04/24/08 06:41pm |
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Ameivaboy View Profile |
Message To: Reptiman123 In reference to Message Id: 1715148 I have some contradicting info!
I have kept Fence lizards and alligator lizard together before. It is fine if you know what you are doing. Obviously a large alligator lizard should not be housed with a small bluebelly. You also must understand that even though they are often found in the same habitats they do live in different ecological niches within those habitats. I have used this example before on this forum but i dont feel like digging through the posts so I’ll just type it out again- Say you have a wood pile. A Fence lizard will be basking on top of it where the heat is higher and the humidity is lower. An alligator lizard on the other hand are not avid baskers, preferring to stay hidden underneath the wood where the temps are lower and the humidity is higher. That is during the day, generally Fence lizards will hide underneath rocks,piece of wood or in burrows at night where the humidity is also a bit higher. If you can recreate this in the terrarium you should be fine. |
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| 04/27/08 12:12pm |
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Hunter Breed View Profile |
Message To: Ameivaboy In reference to Message Id: 1717833
i would like to say Iam sorry for this post getting a little heated which can be annoying when others are just trying to find info from this, i really dont want to come off as one of those kids just looking for trouble so once again sorry, dont feel shy if you want share with me. and a special apology to princess sushi because i know she works hard for her pets and to post useful info up for others to use. |
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| 05/18/08 02:48am |
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Greatballzofire View Profile |
Message To: Hunter Breed In reference to Message Id: 1738840 I have some contradicting info!
Enter the lizards: In a separate habitat set up for their needs I have a large blue belly male and a small (slightly smaller than the bluebelly) alligator lizard. These are not to feed to my snake, but to keep so I can transfer their scent onto the pinkies. I am feeding them crickets and ant eggs, ect. (We have some BIG ants here in the Sierra foothills..  )I have the habitat set up so that the kinds of bugs the alligator likes to eat have their habitat, and the bugs the blue belly likes to eat have theirs. This means having a fine mesh screen as well as the regular cage top! The tank is large enough for these two creatures to each have their own territory, and not feel crowded.
After reading this thread I learned a few more details. I found this topic while googling can I keep two separate species together. I am considering releasing the alligator lizard and just keeping the blue belly, as the latter is more my favorite, and I need the alligator lizard to eat our sowbugs and other pests that hide under things. So far the two creatures are co-existing, but I don’t want to take any chances with their well being. |
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| 05/24/08 06:32pm |
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I have some contradicting info!
I have some contradicting info!
I have some contradicting info!
I have some contradicting info!
I have some contradicting info!