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Kojak View Profile |
The majority of it seems to stem from new members and/or beginners that are seeking advice and seem to take offense very easily. True, there are those of us that get frustrated with questions that seem very important to others. But here’s my take on that whole scenario; If you are on here asking questions, you obviously have Internet access. Why not go do a little research on your own first. Then, once you have read a few different sources of information pertaining to your question, post on here with any relevant info that you are in doubt of or would like a second opinion on. I see way too many new snake owners on here in a panic over things that are easily remedied by reading a few care sheets. If after reading several sources, you still have doubts, then by all means ask questions. But don’t just jump in here looking for solutions to a problem that should have been prevented in the first place, and not expect to bear the tongue in cheek lashing that you so well deserve. None of us on here know everything. I have yet to see anyone on here claim that they do. All of the information and advice you read on here comes from experience. Many of us network with each other to learn new things and to develop our own methods of husbandry. We don’t always agree with each other. That’s human nature folks. But from conflict comes diversity. If everyone simply followed one source of information and never tried anything new, there would never be any advances in our hobby. So to all of you new members and new snake owners out there, be fore warned. Try to do a little something for yourself. If after you have tried and still can’t figure something out, then hop on here and ask away. But don’t take it so personally when someone slides a sarcastic remark your way. Just take it with a grain of salt and absorb what good information may be attached with it. Lighten up people. This is part of what is wrong with our society today. Not every sarcasm is racial, sexist, or meant to be cruel. Believe it or not, some of us actually have a sense of humor. Try it sometime. You might catch yourself grinning, or god forbid, even laughing out loud! If you all are getting this uptight over something that someone has written, I’d hate to see how you react to a real crisis! Are you the kind of people that would actually get into a physical confrontation because someone called your mother a whore? You can call me, my family, and my friends whatever you like. Does it offend me? NO, because I know that they are just words. And I know that the filth coming out of your mouth is unfounded and untrue. Just words. Now if you were to insult my daughter and actually hurt her feelings, that may be different. She is not old enough and does not yet know the ways of the world. So age plays a major role in maturity at times. So am I to believe that the younger generations are not capable of handling constructive criticism, sarcasm, or even an occasional tongue lashing? Wow, if this is the case, we’re all doomed!!! And for those of you who would like to see things handled with kid gloves, well... you wear them. I’m not one to sugar coat anything or take someone by the hand and gently guide them along. Come on, give me a break! With the Internet and all the available resources out there right now, there is no excuse to not have done SOME prior research on any given topic or question. It’s laziness! Why do all the work when I can just get on a forum and have someone spoon feed me and tell me everything I need to know...BULLCRAP!!!!! Get off of your lazy arses and do some dam work!!! Quit waiting for someone else to solve your problems for you. And do not get offended when someone that has put years of time, blood, sweat, and tears into this hobby gets a little impatient with you. If you want help, there’s nothing wrong with that. Everyone needs help now and then. But try to help yourself first! And shame on you those more experienced keepers/breeders that do not see through this "oh help me, help me" mentality. Was there someone there to walk you through your early days as a keeper/breeder? Even if there was, did they talk down to you and make everything flowery and easy to swallow...I doubt it. I know too many old school keepers/breeders. In the early days of this hobby it was all seat of the pants, trial and error. Sometimes at the expense of animals lives. And for those sacrifices, you would have everyone patted on the head and told "there, there, everything will be just fine...here’s exactly what you need to do..." ARrRRrrrrrgggggggghhhhhhh! Come on!!!! Anything worth having is also worth working for! I better end here before I burst a gasket! Chuck, hand me the duct tape please. Thank you and have a good day! |
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| 05/05/08 09:24am |
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Kojak View Profile |
Message To: Kojak In reference to Message Id: 1725724
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| 05/05/08 10:18am |
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Faery View Profile |
Message To: Kojak In reference to Message Id: 1725724 Wow...too much drama
I consider myself a "New-Bie" when it comes to BP`s. I did (still do) a LOT of research on Breeder`s sites and on this Forum...Reading, Reading and more Reading. I am sure from all of my research that I have my husbandry as it should be...But, I still have SO much to learn. I appreciate all of the work that those of You who I consider "Pros" have done, Because all I have to do is read & put it into practice. You all make it SO easy.....Thank You. Rayna PS: Just a side note...Because I researched BEFORE I purchased, I really don`t think I`ve had to ask any stupid questions...LOL |
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| 05/05/08 10:26am |
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Kojak View Profile |
Message To: Faery In reference to Message Id: 1725758
I’ll go even further and ask the "old timers" on here this: How does spoon feeding all the new snake owners help our hobby as a whole? It doesn’t and it won’t. Further more, this can only lead to injury for our hobby. The same people that get on here and post panic stricken questions are the same people that will tell everyone that is considering the purchase of a reptile in the future that snakes make bad pets. This is because they didn’t take the time to research the needs and requirements of their particular animal. And since they couldn’t handle the husbandry, they simply write it off as being too difficult for anyone else. Again...BullCrap!!! I’m all about helping a new snake owner. I very much enjoy sharing what experience I have with anyone that wants to listen. But I can’t realistically raise your animal for you. It just isn’t going to happen. If you are too lazy to read through the pages and pages of information out there just like I have done as well as anyone else on here that has done so, then chances are we’re not going to be able to help anyways. Put forth a little effort, that’s all I’m saying. And don’t be so sensitive. The world is a harsh environment. If you want sensitivity, join a support group. If you want answers to your questions, feel free to ask. But realize that if this same question has been answered on here a hundred times already, you could have found the answer without asking. |
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| 05/05/08 11:30am |
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Kojak View Profile |
Message To: Kojak In reference to Message Id: 1725789
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| 05/05/08 12:47pm |
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Ikon View Profile |
Message To: Kojak In reference to Message Id: 1725789 Wow...too much drama
Now Kojak Im not asking to be spoon fed, nor am I trying to get into an argument or anything. But the benefit I see of being here, over some of the other stuff, is exactly what you said. "Back in the day" there wasnt the internet, or most of the abilities we have today. I feel semi-comfortable in giving some advice to an even newer person than me, if I can, if its going to save a snake. Just, again, for instance if someone asks about housing 2 snakes in one cage. Anyone who has read a care sheet knows this probably aint a good idea...but I dont mind telling someone that either. Maybe they want to know why? Them being new, the care sheets dont always tell them that snakes dont like being housed together. Kind of a bad example as thats an obvious one, but I hope you get my thought process there... Anyways. Nice post, and I agree with alot of it. Again I dont proclaim to be the best reptile keeper out there or anything like that...I just know I like coming here because of friendly advice, and MUCh help I get out of coming here |
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| 05/05/08 12:50pm |
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Rabernet View Profile |
Message To: Ikon In reference to Message Id: 1725840 Wow...too much drama
While I agree that people should do more research, the venom that I see being spit at those asking questions is a bit much. Why not just link to a good caresheet or skip over those that annoy you (not you specifically - but you in general)? You asked if anyone spoon fed us? No - but I also had people who were patient and willing to answer my questions - questions that were probably answered a million times before mine. When I got Kashmire - I had him in a 20 gallon tank with one 1/2 log hide and a stick on thermometer. I’ve come a long way since then. People were kind to me and suggested changes. Even to this day I’m asking "newbie" breeding questions to Kara - and yes, I even got a tongue lashing from her just last week for not having a temp gun ("You need to step it up a notch now, Robin!" she tells me), and she ordered one for me while we were on the phone, much to my protestations - but that’s what a friend does. She’s always given her advice AND tongue lashings with love. What does yelling at a new person or being snarky to them do but send them away from the site, possibly to make no improvements and kill their snake. If they obviously don’t plan to take any advice, then tongue-lash away - but at least give people the benefit of the doubt. All the ugly I’ve seen really turned me off to this site and made me take a long break. Some may not like what I have to say - but it is what it is from where I’m sitting. |
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| 05/05/08 12:58pm |
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Vwvixen02 View Profile |
Message To: Rabernet In reference to Message Id: 1725847
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| 05/05/08 02:52pm |
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GA_Ball_Pythons View Profile |
Message To: Kojak In reference to Message Id: 1725724 Wow...too much drama
You do not agree with someone you can tell them without insulting them, you ask for advice but do not want to listen than don’t bother asking it’s easy and it will avoid a lot of drama! |
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| 05/05/08 03:40pm |
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Kojak View Profile |
Message To: Ikon In reference to Message Id: 1725840
Rab, you and I go back a bit further than some on here, not as long as some others. You know as well as I do that we all start off with much to learn. I realize that and welcome the opportunity to help. I have stated that repeatedly. When I first came on here, you and GA and Franky and many others were more than willing to help me with anything I needed help on. I will gladly do the same for anyone on here now. But I also did not rely on just you all to take my hand and walk me through. To this day, I do things differently than some of the things I know that you all do. But in the end, it works for me, my snakes are healthy and thriving. The problem I have is when someone simply does not think for themselves. They come on here looking for solutions to problems that should have never occurred, for the most part. With just the slightest effort, anyone can do a little research and avoid many of the repeated problems you see on here. Again, I am all about helping someone with a problem, regardless of the nature. But I just see more and more of some of the most ridiculous posts on here that I could have never imagined. Believe me, I’m numb to the "Help, help...my ball python won’t eat" posts. My point is this; why not read a little before you make such a post and then if there is something you don’t understand or have doubts about, then ask your question in a more direct manner so as not to appear to be completely blind to the possible causes of your problem. Now onto Ikon... Quote: The only problem I see with this is, alot of places cross their information. For instance...feed a tad smaller, or a tad bigger than the snake. You can research all you want, but all the books, care sheets, pet store owners etc have differing opinions. I have said it several times as well as others on here. This is exactly why you should research multiple sources of information. Then you look for consistencies in the information. When you run into areas that are conflicting, those are the things you should ask about.
Quote: DUE TO HER EXPERIENCE I trust the ever living crap out of her This is another issue that I haven’t even started to address on here. Way too many people, especially new members, take the advice of some of the more experienced keepers/breeders on here as law. They simply take the advice given and that’s it...end of discussion. This, I feel, can cause complacency. There are many different ways to do any given task. Animal husbandry is no different. The way GA, or Rab, or Scylla or I do things may be different completely. Which way is correct? Answer: all of them if they achieve the desired results! By falling into this "idol worship", you limit yourself to gaining only the experience that is handed down to you. You gain no new knowledge. You do not develop skills of your own. You are simply regurgitating information. I was guilty of the exact same thing when I first started out on here. The problem is that if you happen to regurgitate bad information, then you have become part of the problem, not the solution. I’m not saying that even the novice shouldn’t or can’t be of help to others. But if all you can do is repeat information that you were given, then you are no more an asset than a printed care sheet.
I posted this original topic in the hopes that maybe new comers would begin to question things. I also wanted to make people think of possible alternate ways to solve their own problems. Learn by your own experiences. Yes, I realize that some people may need help and it could be the difference between life and death for their animal. But these are the same people that seem to not want to put forth the effort to do their own research. I see way too much "Well this member said that it should be done this way, so that’s the way I’m doing it" mentality. If that’s the extent of your curiosity, or your desire to learn, then so be it. Me, I want to learn more than any ONE or FEW individuals have to offer here. The only way I have seen that this is possible is to network, research, and personal experience. Sometimes you have to really dig to find what you are looking for...and I feel that there are way too many new snake owners that don’t know how, or are unwilling to operate that shovel!! As far as the sarcasm goes...once again, another problem I feel with society in general today. If you are offended by anything that has ever been written on here, I’m guessing you buy into the whole "political correctness" thing as well. WELL I DON’T! I think it’s a bunch of BS formulated by weak, spineless bureaucrats that are too timid to stand their ground and defend what they believe in. This country was not built on political correctness! Hey, bottom line...if you don’t like it, don’t read it. Are there members on here that have a tendency to be sharp tongued...yes. Are there statements made on here that could be perceived as rude...sure are. Do you have to read them or comment on them...absolutely not! So if this post has you fired up...excellent. Get up from behind the RepticZone screen and go look around! Go find some information that you feel is incorrect and let’s discuss it here. If you have read 20 different care sheets and found 19 different ways to thaw rodents...let’s get on here and discuss them. Get interested. Be proactive, not reactive!!!!!!! And yes, we CAN all just get along. I’m a lover not a fighter. But I will fight for what I believe in. Will you? Will you stand behind your methods even if they differ from someone else’s methods on here? I will, and I do. There’s more than one way to do the same thing..safely and effectively most of the time. |
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| 05/05/08 04:09pm |
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Kojak View Profile |
Message To: Kojak In reference to Message Id: 1725996
Quote: we are about to call the blue cross, i dont no if they will no anything so can you people help me as your the experts
Is the Blue Cross an animal rescue or animal paramedic service in the UK? If not then all I have to say is this; if you don’t know that you should take the animal to a vet, then you may not be ready for animal ownership, particularly an exotic animal. |
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| 05/05/08 04:18pm |
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Marg View Profile |
Message To: Kojak In reference to Message Id: 1726009 Wow...too much drama
This is one of the things that Agrivates me to no end... As I’m sure it does everyone else!!! * When some one comes asking for help, or advice... * Does not get the answer or advice they are looking for... * or the answer they want to hear/read... * Ignores the advice given... * Then come back crying because they have a Worse problem... * That came from the Original Problem. Or they simply refuse to accept that they have bad husbandry... and pass their Bad Judgement on to New snake owners. I agree there is much drama, and I have limited time on here, so I have been trying to stay away from long, winded threads... I agree, we all have diferent Methods, and we all have Someting that works for Us. And as I have stated in Many posts... * What works for me, may Not work for You (anyone in general) * This does not mean one can not try it, but if we suggest something that would suit Your situation better (again - anyone in general), then advice, that is the general census, should be followed. |
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| 05/05/08 04:44pm |
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Ikon View Profile |
Message To: Marg In reference to Message Id: 1726041 Wow...too much drama
The person I was referring to is Franky, and before I took my break from here Rab helped me qith quite a bit too. I dont take what they say/said as "law" but I would much rather someone tell me a way they do something, a way that they know works for sure, and I start with that, and will work my way into something for me. Just saying as an example this hasnt happened to me or anything like that, again just an example..Say im starting out on F/T and im curious to know the "best method" Franky can tell me that she thaws overnight, then warms them up with a hair dryer. Okay cool...im gunna do that. Then after I use that method, Ima try my own idea...say warm water for 10 minutes. That dont work, okay let’s go to microwaving (I know I know), etc. If I have NO IDEA on something (see my grunting? post) Im gunna ask people I know who DEFINATELY know something. Franky, Rab, yourself, GA...ALL great resources IMO, and people I, myself, would trust as to knowing WTF they are doing. Now, to jump on your side of things...I do agree that Jonny Jacob Snake Owner should NOt ask someone "Hey, how do I thaw rats?" to which someone replies "Thaw overnight, warm water" Johhny replies with "Eff that im gunna microwave"...etc. I agree with the ones like that...but for us others who take your input, and use it...I dont care if the question pertains to using Cedar/Pine bedding...I see NO problem with them asking. Just my $.02 |
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| 05/05/08 06:17pm |
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LoftLizard View Profile |
Message To: Ikon In reference to Message Id: 1726179 Wow...too much drama
"nice snake! Congrats!" :) If you’re nice and accomadating you get spat on, if you’re firm you get spat on, if you’re abrupt... same thing. The joy of the Internet. I have had dialogue with people where I have not been rude or name called, and then been accused later of being a jerk. So I just do not respond to those people. I rarely come unhinged on someone, but the few times I am abrupt... those seem to cancel out the myriad posts in which you offer advice and let them know what is working for you and others. Regardless of all the rest of it. I will never tolerate those that ask for advice and then are surly, nasty, rude, and petulant in return. If you buy an animal and come online after you have made mistakes and you want people to help you fix it, then you show some sort of appreciation for the time and energy that people put into that. Especailly when they are helping you save time and money. I just think people that are posting should be a bit more honest when they post... rather than saying "help my snake has an RI"... they should label it "help I do not want to seek qualified veterinary care as that will cost me money, so I demand that you fix my snake for me, because if you do not I am going to come unhinged and call you a nasty turd!" Just my last 2 cents bruce |
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| 05/05/08 09:26pm |
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Conan View Profile |
Message To: LoftLizard In reference to Message Id: 1726429 Wow...too much drama
Quote: I think I am going back to simply responding to picture posts
That is so much easier on my simple brain. I could not even read this whole post HA |
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| 05/05/08 09:45pm |
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Frankykeno View Profile |
Message To: Conan In reference to Message Id: 1726466 Wow...too much drama
I’d suggest before you ever go down that road with me you think again. I’ve spent years on line, on the phone, in person trying to help new keepers find their way and become confident and knowledgeable. Not because it’s some sort of flippin ego trip for me or I have that sort of spare time but because it needed done. I’ll be the first to slap down someone who given the information won’t listen or care but I sure as heck am not slapping first and taking any pleasure from it! I don’t give my opinion as cast in stone. I never have, I never will. My opinion is what it is, my own personal experience and hopefully a stepping stone for someone to take in further wisdom, do their own research and grow as a snake keeper. You don’t think I get bone tired of answering the same questions over and over! Seeing year after year the same newcomers with the same snakes out of the same PetCo! My point is me indulging myself in a little online temper tantrum is absolutely counterproductive. It may make me feel better but it does NOT help the person and by virtue of that, it does NOT help the snake....the whole darn reason I bother to log on in the first place. You do it your way, I’ll continue to do it mine. However, I’ll also continue to be very sorry when I read posts or get PM’s from people too intimidated lately by the tone of this site to ask a question. If you want newcomers to take advice, to accept critique, think about how you’re reacting by getting any yourself. I’m not seeing a lot of personal reflection here.....I’m seeing reactive "it’s their fault, I’m fine" "I won’t post here anymore" type of responses. Isn’t that what you all go on at newbies about? Think about it. |
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| 05/06/08 06:20am |
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Rabernet View Profile |
Message To: Frankykeno In reference to Message Id: 1726761 Wow...too much drama
Quote: You must spread some reputation around before giving to FrankyKeno again
Oh wait - wrong forum! 
The point I was trying to make yesterday, but you said so much better. It’s ABSOLUTELY not spoonfeeding to be *gasp* nice to new members. But what I’ve briefly read in the past few days has really been disappointing. I’m thinking to myself - "wait - is this really _____ who’s writing this? They’ve never been like this before - what the hell happened to them?" It just really saddens me to see a holier than thou attitude that’s going on here. What happened to a kinder, gentler approach? Franky and I moderate a much larger ball python related forum - with at a miniumum 10 times the number of new members posting the same kind of questions as being posted here. And yet that forum maintains a friendly atmosphere. It used to be that way here too. And I’m rather offended that you, Chris, of all people would say that being nice is spoonfeeding? That being nice is somehow a flaw? I’m rather shocked, it’s certainly not the person I thought I knew and met last year. I found you to be much kinder, much more empathetic to others. I can only wonder who’s been influencing your point of view lately to make you be so harsh. It’s very disappointing. I like the old Chris much better. The one with wonder in his eyes at all the new things he was seeing for the first time in Daytona and all the new things he was learning, not the jaded one who enjoys being a bully. If I didn’t see your name on the posts - I would have sworn up and down that was not you - not the Kojak I know. What happened to him? |
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| 05/06/08 06:40am |
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Frankykeno View Profile |
Message To: Rabernet In reference to Message Id: 1726766 Wow...too much drama
Call me a "bleeding heart" Chris. My heart is involved in my friends, in my passion for this hobby and in my committment to help as I was helped and still am helped so I’m fine with that. Like Robin I’m disappointed you would use these dismissive terms to people that care about you as more than a username on a snake forum. Robin and I have known each other for years through various forums. I consider her a dear friend. If you think for one second though that Robin and I don’t disagree strongly on some issues, you’re dead wrong. We have some rip roaring discussions that get close to arguements over some things. Do we dismiss each other, use words that are meant to demean, take offense and stomp off? Nope, we in the end agree to disagree because underneath the differences in opinion, we are friends and adults that respect each other even when we aren’t in agreement. We learn from each other all the time through those disagreements. I trust Robin enough to listen if she says "hey Jo think about what you are doing" because I trust that she’s saying it because she cares and I am likely over the line. I wish for some of you that you trust enough to know that there is no malice in what has been raised here and in other threads, just a concern that seems to be met with responses that raise even more concerns. |
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| 05/06/08 06:52am |
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H8er4eva View Profile |
Message To: Kojak In reference to Message Id: 1726009 Wow...too much drama
Quote: Is the Blue Cross an animal rescue or animal paramedic service in the UK? If not then all I have to say is this; if you don’t know that you should take the animal to a vet, then you may not be ready for animal ownership, particularly an exotic animal.
They are, they take in dogs, cats and some smaller animals. I went to a place near me and they had loads of dogs (alot of staffies because people think they are aggressive and they arent) quite a few cats, and some small rodents. I was looking for reptiles and they had none. I asked if they ever got any and they said no. So the blue cross is a moronic place to go for information. They would be better of going to a reptile shop (because over here we dont have the chain stores that sell reptiles). |
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| 05/06/08 07:05am |
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Littleindiangirl View Profile |
Message To: Frankykeno In reference to Message Id: 1726771 Wow...too much drama
The written word is the lowest form of communication. With out those tones of voice, body stance and behavior, volume in speaking... it’s so hard to really READ what’s being said. The newcomer to a forum most likely is NEW to forums, or comes from forums that do not focus so much on kind words and family environment. I know I don’t post very much here, but it’s not because this is a dramatic forum. The BOI is a dramatic forum, be glad yours is not anywhere near as cutthroat. I think it’s important to not automatically point out whats wrong to the newcomer, but welcome them heartedly, make them feel at ease and welcome, and give them SUGGESTIONS, not orders. Giving suggestions followed by why you feel they are good suggestions will not only keep the newbie off the defensive, but teach them a thing or two about why certain suggestions are so key to successful keeping. If they ask questions, answer politely. Not berate them for not just taking your word. It’s GOOD to ask questions. When did that become taboo? In my experience, many newbies are teenagers or young adults. You know how tough it is for that age to be humble and accept criticism. They are out to make something of themselves and are trying to get away from being told what to do. If more posts made it a priority to be kind, I think many forums would have less flame wars. Now for those that go right off the bat and start insulting and name calling, I think that will take firm words, but not fight fire with fire. That only ever escalates the problem. Ok, sorry it was so long, lol :) |
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| 05/06/08 01:18pm |
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Rabernet View Profile |
Message To: Littleindiangirl In reference to Message Id: 1726980 Wow...too much drama
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| 05/06/08 01:30pm |
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SatanicIntention View Profile |
Message To: Rabernet In reference to Message Id: 1726986 Wow...too much drama
I will be nice to a new keeper to a point, but I am always level-headed unless they just blatantly will not take advice being given to them. If someone who has been keeping Ball Pythons or another specific snake for the past 25 years tells them that it works best to do something one way, but the new keeper goes off and does it a completely different way and is unsuccessful, then gripes that no one helped them, then what are you going to say? You either tell them to research for themselves or you reinstate what you said previously. If they aren’t going to help themselves, and someone keeps offering advice, which the new keeper doesn’t take, then THAT is spoon feeding. They can research, they can find what the basics of husbandry should be, it’s not difficult, and any 12 year old can click Search on this forum, or on Ball-Pythons.net, or GOOGLE for pete’s sake, and look for Ball Python husbandry. I’ve been keeping Ball Pythons since 04 and have over 40 of them. I successfully hatched out 18 Ball Pythons last season, and am in my second breeding season this year. If someone doesn’t want to take my advice on what works for me, then that’s fine, but if 10+ experienced people have given them advice, and they don’t take it, and repeatedly ask for more advice, then there is a point where advice needs to stop.. That may be just my opinion, but THAT to me is spoonfeeding, if the advice just keeps on rollin’. |
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| 05/06/08 03:23pm |
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Littleindiangirl View Profile |
Message To: Rabernet In reference to Message Id: 1726986 Wow...too much drama
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| 05/06/08 03:24pm |
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Littleindiangirl View Profile |
Message To: SatanicIntention In reference to Message Id: 1727071 Wow...too much drama
Quote: Connie is like me in a way; long-winded, blunt and we like to spout VENOM! *hiss spit* Sorry, that’s from a Kingsnake thread I am still laughing about.
LOL, that’s how we roll! Spewing the hot venom where ever we go ROFL |
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| 05/06/08 03:27pm |
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Faro View Profile |
Message To: Kojak In reference to Message Id: 1725724 Wow...too much drama
I have got great advice from Kojak and many other and really appreciate their time in helping me and others |
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| 05/06/08 06:41pm |
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Faro View Profile |
Message To: Faro In reference to Message Id: 1727312 Wow...too much drama
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| 05/06/08 08:38pm |
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Kojak View Profile |
Message To: Frankykeno In reference to Message Id: 1726771
I am simply stating that I have seen a trend on here that bothers me deeply. This trend is one that carries well beyond the reptile forums as well. It is simply a trend of laziness. Never have I been rude or attacked anyone on here. I have always encouraged people to ask questions, regardless of their nature. I have often gone out of my way, as many of you have, to help someone with a genuine concern. Now I disappoint you because I have an opinion about the level of self motivation in new snake owners?? Now you can’t believe that I am disappointed with new reptile owners and their lack of common sense for the proper care of their animals. You want to gasp that I can be straight forward and criticize someone? Sharing information and addressing problems is one thing. But I see a real need for newcomers to work a little harder at developing better husbandry on their own. I’m not saying don’t help people...let them figure it out on their own. By no means. We all know that only the animals stand to lose with this approach. What I’m trying to say is this...Give a man a fish , he eats dinner. Teach a man to fish, he feeds his family every night. You guys are so caught up in this whole sensitivity issue that you are neglecting your responsibility to encourage learning! This is part of what’s wrong with our society today! No one wants to work towards anything if there is someone to do it for them. Never have I seen such a group of people that can misconstrue a concern and try to turn it into a written attack. It saddens me to think that anyone would think for a second that I, of all people, would not want to help others. I will not change the fact that I am going to help people. But I am not going to baby anyone. If I see the opportunity to show someone that the mistakes they have made were easily preventable, then I jump at the chance. I’m not about to sit back and let our hobby dwindle away because inexperience and laziness have joined forces to bad mouth reptile keeping. If you want to treat the symptoms instead of look for a cure to the disease, so be it. Think of me what you will. I am still here to help ANYONE that wants help. I will NEVER criticize anyone or attack them for asking a question. That is not to say that I won’t make light of a bad situation in order to get someone to think on their own. How dare you. Now that I have an opinion and don’t fall within the umbrella of "a gentler, kinder way" you want to try to make me out a bad guy. Are you serious? What happened to independent thinking? What happened to exploration? Have we really gotten to the point that anyone that has a difference of opinion is considered an outcast to be viewed as a heretic in the reptile world? Guilty as charged. If applying my own method of encouragement doesn’t conform to your acceptable guidelines, then perhaps I have crossed into a realm best left for those more comfortable within. I was under the impression that humility and discretion were attributes worthy of having. Anymore I see too often that expressing an opinion on here leads to confrontation, which, in my opinion, is counterproductive. Is it now taboo to actually tell someone that they are screwing up "by the numbers"? Can we not poke fun at anyone or anything for fear of offending? Have we really gotten that soft? I knew when I originally posted this thread that a hell storm was more than likely to follow. I did so anyways with the expectations of such. I did not post this thread to become the focus of any ones scrutiny. But be that as it may, I am not so fragile that I can’t bear the brunt of anyone’s comments. I will not apologize for anything I have said or done. Now, did I come on here over a year ago and seek help. I sure did. But I wasn’t content to leave it at that. Rab, Franky, GA and many others indirectly encouraged me to do the research, to dig for answers. I spent many, many hours sifting through information, talking with breeders, buying books, and even learning from my own mistakes. I did not and will not become complacent so as to depend on someone to solve my problems for me. That is what I mean by "spoon feeding". The dissemination of information is a great thing. But you can provide information in such a manner so as to facilitate laziness. There are too many people out there that are satisfied with having everything handed to them, and not have to work for anything on their own. I WILL NOT FOLLOW this particular school of thought. I want new snake and reptile owners to get excited and desire to learn more. It appears to me that there is an overwhelming lack of this self motivation in these forums. Do I get tired of answering or even seeing the same questions over and over...You’re damn right I do. To me it shows a real lack of motivation, initiative, and attention to detail. Realistically, there should never be more than one thread at any given time as to why someones ball python won’t eat. You know why you see the same questions on here repeatedly...because the people asking them aren’t willing to take the time to read the information YOU, the experienced keeper, have gone out of your way to so generously share! How does that NOT offend you? How do you NOT consider that taking someone by the hand and facilitating their laziness. You have just become an enabler. "I don’t have to waste MY time to read the information someone shared on the exact same question I am about to post, because I know that they will simply answer it again and again and again. Much less effort for me to ask the question again then to take the initiative to read before I ask. Are you kidding me? You don’t see this? And you want to tell me that you can’t believe that it’s me posting this concern? Come on...make these people open their minds! Make them think! Make them do a little work for themselves! Encourage self development, don’t hinder growth! Well it should be apparent that I am highly motivated at this point. I am disappointed that only a handful of members on here were able to see the focus of my concerns, and that the few I expected to formulate a solution, or work together to develop better methods of assistance, have simply turned the tables and try to make this about me. It’s not about me...it’s not about you. It’s not about who knows more or who has the bigger collection, or who knows the bigger breeders. It’s about educating the novice and encouraging growth in the hobby and the industry itself. And now there are those that want to have me believe I shouldn’t have a little fun while doing just this? You have your methods, I have mine. Perhaps I have too great an expectation for today’s youth and novices. Perhaps society HAS become so soft and politically correct that the tongue in cheek humor has gone the way of the dinosaur. Perhaps it is time to sit back for a while and watch. Much in the same manner I might sit back and watch my neighbors house burn to the ground instead of trying to help. Maybe it is time for Kojak to sit back and rethink his approach to helping others... I wouldn’t hold your breath for that to happen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
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| 05/07/08 10:45am |
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Kojak View Profile |
Message To: Rabernet In reference to Message Id: 1726766
Quote: And I’m rather offended that you, Chris, of all people would say that being nice is spoon feeding? That being nice is somehow a flaw? I’m rather shocked, it’s certainly not the person I thought I knew and met last year. I found you to be much kinder, much more empathetic to others.
I NEVER said being nice was spoon feeding. Again, you have missed my point entirely. I NEVER said being nice was a flaw. Myself, if anyone, have always been, and always will be nice to everyone, unless given a reason otherwise. I will continue to be as such. If anything, I am too nice a person at times. Enjoys being a bully??? Where have you EVER seen me come across as a bully Robin? Show me ONE example, and I will not hesitate to apologize to that person and anyone within reading distance. And you know what..that wondrous look in my eyes, it’s still here. Do you know why? Because I have made the effort to explore on my own...to open new doors, and not have them opened for me. You and Franky and GA..you have always been there for me and anyone who needed help. I have always tried to model myself in the same manner, and I am that way anyways. I greatly appreciate everything you all have shared with me over the years. That has not, and will not change. Jaded...no, disappointed. Disappointed at the fact that there are not major signs of advancement by more people that I am seeing on here. Are you telling me that you are content to see people reach a level and not want to advance to the next? I know better. If that were the case, you wouldn’t do what you do..any of you. You wouldn’t be on here helping others.
I can only wonder who’s been influencing your point of view lately to make you be so harsh. It’s very disappointing. I like the old Chris much better. The one with wonder in his eyes at all the new things he was seeing for the first time in Daytona and all the new things he was learning, not the jaded one who enjoys being a bully. If I didn’t see your name on the posts - I would have sworn up and down that was not you - not the Kojak I know. What happened to him? But you all are missing golden opportunities for advancement. You’re not looking outside the box..not seeing the bigger picture. Have you all become satisfied with simply helping to solve problems and not encourage development and growth so as to prevent these same problems in the future? It’s time to start pushing forward. And that may mean that you have to actually push! Granted, I will agree that some members have a tendency to be sharp tongued. Personally I prefer tongue in cheek humor and analogies to get people to think. But everyone has their own way, just as you said Franky. And I will agree that no one should ever feel intimidated to the point that they don’t ask a question. All I’m saying is make people think before they ask the question. More and more of the questions I’m seeing are common sense, or at least should be. If you can’t safely cross the street by yourself, maybe it would be better if you stayed in the yard??? Is that the direction we are heading? I have indeed changed. For the better. I have learned and experienced much in the short time that I have been a keeper. I dove into this hobby head first, with no life jacket. But you know what...I learned to swim with a little help. I didn’t have someone fish me out of the water, only to dive right back in and scream for help. That’s all I’m hoping for. That’s all I want to see a little more of. People trying to swim on their own before they call for the lifeguard. You guys are tossing the floatation devices before anyone’s hair gets wet. And now you want to become disappointed in me because I’m suggesting that you let them go under a little before you fish them out. Maybe we just aren’t hitting on the same topic here. Maybe I’m looking to far into the future for anyone else to follow me. Maybe I’m too "old school" in my ways of thinking. When I first came into this forum, did I not show all of you more experienced keepers the greatest of respect? Did I not demonstrate great humility? I’m just not seeing much of that from the newer breed of keepers. I do see more on here the exact same thing I see in the streets...disrespect, arrogance, and defiance. And you don’t think that fuels the fire of sarcasm? What other weapons do we possess to combat such attitudes? I love you guys and have the greatest respect for you all. I admire the things you do for others. I only wish that there were an easier way to convey my concerns and help you to see that we, as a group, need to encourage greater self development with the new keepers. You want to crucify me because I have voiced my concerns...here I am. I await you unarmed and open handed. But realize that by chastising me, you send forth the very same message that you say I have harbored. Am I not free to speak without persecution? Am I to be an example of the consequences received for voicing my opinion? Tread lightly, for there are fragile eyes upon you. Or so you would have me believe. |
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| 05/07/08 11:28am |
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Rabernet View Profile |
Message To: Kojak In reference to Message Id: 1727994 Wow...too much drama
I will admit that I did not get out of your first posts what you explained in your latter posts. I do agree that new members need to do the due diligence to do their own research and then be asking questions to help fill in the gaps or clear up things that may not be so clear to them. I also do not believe that there is only one way to successfully keep these animals, but there is a generally accepted one way to recommend to the new keeper to keep these animals, only expanding their deviations once they have the basics down. Chris - you know that I love you too - you’re my boy. I smile whenever I think of you and having met you in Daytona last year what a sweet guy you are. And I can’t wait to see you again this year. My mis-interpretation of your message is what made me wonder where that person had gone. |
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| 05/07/08 11:58am |
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JupiterBP View Profile |
Message To: Kojak In reference to Message Id: 1727994 Wow...too much drama
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| 05/07/08 11:59am |
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Wow...too much drama
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