Your Reptile and Amphibian Resource and Information Site

Back to Cages and Enclosures Forum   Forums   Home   Members Area  

Cages and Enclosures Forum

Yavie   Shiftylarry   Yavie   Shiftylarry   Yavie   Shiftylarry   Ravenn   Shiftylarry   SBD11   Yavie   SBD11   Shiftylarry   Yavie   Ravenn   Ravenn   Ahope   Shiftylarry   Yavie   Shiftylarry   Ravenn   Ravenn   Ameivaboy   Ravenn   ShyBoy   Shiftylarry   Ravenn   Shiftylarry   Ravenn   Ravenn   Marg  
Pages 1 2 Next
 Member  Message

 #1348801


Yavie
View Profile

 Tile floor for many herp types?

No no, I’m not housing many herps types together (:

In the interest of not spamming multiple forums, I thought I’d try here first.

I’ve got a leo, two treefrogs, a MHD and will be getting two cresties soon. I was wondering if a tile floor would be ok for all of them (in seperate enclosures) ? In the frogs, MHD and crestie vivs I have/will have live plants, and was wondering if I could just leave them potted instead of my original plan of planting them in soil, moss and bedabeast.

Is it necessary to have an actual substrate for any or all of these species? Or would my tile/potted plants idea work ok?

I’m asking in the interests of keeping the cleaning job easier and faster. I think if I’m very careful, a planted viv would be somewhat "self-cleaning" but I just don’t want to take any chances by using that method.

- Yav
07/07/07  12:00am

 #1349320


Shiftylarry
View Profile



   Message To: Yavie   In reference to Message Id: 1348801


 Tile floor for many herp types?

Tile is definitely not going to work out for you. I know people seem to suggest tile all the time, which is the bain of my existence, but particulary for the speices you want to keep it would be a bad idea. All the animals you have, including the leopard geckos. Dirt is the best solution. The reason is that dirt can hold a certain amount of water in it. As the days go by, it gradually loses some of its water content through evaporation. This elevates the humidity level for your animals. Even if you went out an bought an idustrial sized automatic mister for you animals dirt is still the way to go, because it is their natural substrate. If you don’t use dirt, you’re going to find that maintaining humidity is a real pain. And if you don’t already check your humidity, go out and buy a gauge now and find out for yourself if your animals are at the correct levels.

Quote:

I’m asking in the interests of keeping the cleaning job easier and faster.



Unfortunately this isn’t really about what you need. It’s about the needs of your animals. But you’re expressing one of the primary reasons that so many people push for tile. Let me explain a few more things about tile:

1. The people who push for tile all seem to come from the bearded dragon and leopard gecko forums, and these animals are commonly kept by inexperience herp keepers.

2. The problem from ingestion are usually experienced from sand, calci-sand to be exact. Calci-sand is a calcium fortified substrate that encourages consumption because of its content. Impaction also occurs frequently with substrates like bark and wood chippings. (Note: These substrates are either man made or infrequent in nature)

3. Impaction is often a result of improper temperatures which prevent metabolization and impede digestion of substrates.

4. Ground up dirt is not a common source of impaction. People have just put a hex on all substrates because of bad experiences with a few types. If you ate a mouthful of dirt, it wouldn’t be much fun, but if your healthy you should be able to pass it. Same with your reptiles.

5. Whatever is natural is best. If they’ve spent millions of years evolving to live in an environment, why are we so inclined to change their habitats? I suppose it’s because human beings like to dominate mother nature or somehow prove we can alter it for the better. My opinion is leave it as is.

Now keep in mind that your leopard geckos will need a different quality of dirt than your other, more tropical animals. I would recommend a mixture of very fine sand with dirt, consisting of more sand than dirt. Similar to the type of bedding they would be on in the desertous regions of Afganistan, Pakistan and India. Your other animals are more arboreal, so the dirt mixture is not as important, but using dirt is still important for maintaining humidity.

After I write this down, I’m sure someone is going to post some lame complaint about how all animals should be kept on tile, but trust me, if you want your animals to live happy and healthy lives, follow my advice.

-Chris
07/07/07  02:23pm

 #1349347


Yavie
View Profile



   Message To: Shiftylarry   In reference to Message Id: 1349320


 Tile floor for many herp types?

Well, this actually makes me feel better. It was my original idea to go very natural - not only for the look but specifically for helping with humidity - but then I got concerned about cleaning. It does seem to me that with a naturalistic viv, "cleaning" of the substrate would take place naturally, correct?

So would you suggest totally plain dirt, bought at a retail store? No perlite or fertilizers, just dirt, right? And then I thought I’d use sphagnum moss as well, around the plant bases to act as a sort of mulch to help keep them damp.

For my leo, where would I find "very fine sand" ? I’ve read a few books and caresheets that suggest play sand because it’s all uniform size and shape, but I don’t think of play sand as "fine".

Thanks for your very well thought out response (:

- Yav



07/07/07  02:46pm

 #1349564


Shiftylarry
View Profile



   Message To: Yavie   In reference to Message Id: 1349347


 Tile floor for many herp types?

If you can find a source of dirt that is naturally occuring but not near pesticides, that would be best. The natural bacteria in the dirt will help clean any spots of poop you miss. For the leopard geckos, a good source would be a creek bed. Think of how the substrate in desertous regions was formed, ancient lakes and rivers that have long since dried up. Or, you could visit a store that sells gravel and rock. They usually supply other qualities of sand as well. The moss sounds great and the frogs can hide in it and hydrate themselves.

Be sure to post some pics of the finished enclosures.

By the way, what kind of MHDs do you have?
07/07/07  06:18pm

 #1349651


Yavie
View Profile



   Message To: Shiftylarry   In reference to Message Id: 1349564


 Tile floor for many herp types?

I’ve got one crucigera, he’ll be moving into a 4x2x18" viv sometime next week, I’m so excited (: Right now he’s in an 18 cube E-T (he’s a juv.)

Picked up the dirt today but ran out of room in my Cooper (lol) for the drainage gravel and sand that I found!

My leo will be moving into a Visionarium, the 20 long type, can’t remember the dimensions. I’m thinking about moving the Cuban’s into the 18 cube because they just seem so cramped in the 12x12x18 they’re in now.



07/07/07  08:13pm

 #1349779


Shiftylarry
View Profile



   Message To: Yavie   In reference to Message Id: 1349651


 Tile floor for many herp types?

Yeah, the crucigeras are cool. Love the devil horns. We had one at the shop I work at and my boss grabbed a bottle to mist him down and accidentally sprayed him with bleach. He lived suprisingly, but after that he let me take care of the reptiles for a while.
07/07/07  10:24pm

 #1349861


Ravenn
View Profile



   Message To: Shiftylarry   In reference to Message Id: 1349320


 Tile floor for many herp types?

I don’t know anything about the other animals you have, but I do know a great deal on Leopard geckos. Dirt and sand is not a natural substrate for leos. Just because they come from the desert, it doens’t mean that they live on sand. The areas in Pakistan and Afghanistan, in which they’re from, are a hard packed clay and rocky substrate with a little more vegetation than your common desert. It’s covered with a very very thin layer of very fine sand which give them calcium, but that’s why we put calcium dishes in their tanks

If I were you, I’d use slate, which is a natural rock used like tile. It’s rock that is compressed over many many years by nature. If you have problems with humidity in your area, live plants will help in that situation. Just make sure the humidity level does not exceed %40.

I hope you take this advice in the most friendliest way, I’m not trying to bash on anyone or anything.

Here are pics of two of my vivariums to give you an idea:
#1



#2



07/07/07  11:49pm

 #1350297


Shiftylarry
View Profile



   Message To: Ravenn   In reference to Message Id: 1349861


 Tile floor for many herp types?

Ravenn, no offense taken, but I did not suggest sand, I suggested sand mixed with dirt. After all dirt is simply a mixture of organic (dirt) and inorganic (rocks and sand) material. Yes, plants are a decent way of raising humidity in an enclosure, but let me explain why the rock floor you’re using isn’t such a great idea. You see, us humans have these big fleshy feet and we have no issues moving across flat rocks, hardwood floors, or the like. Reptiles on the other hand have protruding claws designed for gripping on to some sort of sort of substrate. So when you put them on rock or tile alone, it puts a lot of pressure on their feet. Mind you, there are lizards who spend the majority of their lives living on hard, rocky surfaces like these flat lizards from Africa:


But they are specialized to meet their environment. Look at their feet closely and you can see the difference. They’re very flat, and cover a large surface area of the rock. Imagine what would happen if you took an arboreal animal like a green iguana or basilisk or Mountain Horned Dragon with arched toes and put them on rock for their whole lives. The same is true in the case of a leopard gecko, they need substrate. Every reptile has special requirements, as reptile keepers, it’s our job to do the best we can to meet those requirements.

-Chris
07/08/07  01:12pm

 #1351075


SBD11
View Profile



   Message To: Shiftylarry   In reference to Message Id: 1350297


 Tile floor for many herp types?

I use a top soil/sand mix in my leos cage. People would be surprised how much time leos spend working with the dirt. Here’s a pic of my female digging under a fake log then pushing her calcium dish under the log.


In this pic you can see the calcium dish under the log. You can also see a mound the leos made in the corner.

They couldn’t do any of these things on tile.
07/09/07  12:00am

 #1351083


Yavie
View Profile



   Message To: SBD11   In reference to Message Id: 1351075


 Tile floor for many herp types?

What kind of sand do you use, SBD? I’ve decided I’m going with my first instinct and using the soil/sand mixture. I’ve got the soil, just not quite sure what grade of sand to try besides play sand which isn’t very "fine".

The tile I have will be made into a hide and some rocky "terrain" hehe.



07/09/07  12:10am

 #1351151


SBD11
View Profile



   Message To: Yavie   In reference to Message Id: 1351083


 Tile floor for many herp types?

I use play sand that I get from lowes or toys r us. It doesn’t really matter what brand. As long as its washed/sifted play sand you don’t have to worry about silica dust and respiratory problems.
07/09/07  12:59am

 #1351615


Shiftylarry
View Profile



   Message To: SBD11   In reference to Message Id: 1351151


 Tile floor for many herp types?

If I didn’t already mention this, the dirt you should use is topsoil (that is if you decide to purchase it). Potting soil is often filled with rocks and perlite to keep the dirt from compacting. Topsoil at home depot is like $1.25 for a 40lb bag. But of course this dirt will not have the decomposing bacteria that are prized. In my monitor cages when I’ve used store bought in the past, I threw in earthworms and pill bugs to help clean the dirt instead. My argus loves to eat them, but I have no idea if this will affect your animals. I imagine the cubans might apreciate the occasional worm.
07/09/07  01:26pm

 #1351632


Yavie
View Profile



   Message To: Shiftylarry   In reference to Message Id: 1351615


 Tile floor for many herp types?

Yeah, topsoil is what I got, some local area stuff from HD. I’ll do some research on the earthworm thing which is a terrific idea!



07/09/07  01:43pm

 #1352025


Ravenn
View Profile



   Message To: Shiftylarry   In reference to Message Id: 1350297


 Tile floor for many herp types?

You know what Shftlarry, most people in my position would probably fight back and argue with you or something, but you’ve actually got me thinking about the whole flat-foot thing. Though, I’m not just gonna turn around and change all my substrate right away.

What I’m gonna do is change up one my vivariums. I’ll re-do my 30gal and keep it half slate like already have and half top-soil like you advise. I’ll keep it that way for about a month to see how they react to it and see which side is more desirable to them.

I’m gonna go to Home Depot in a couple hours to buy that topsoil, and I’ll try to post pics if I can. If not then I’ll just do an update in about a month.

I had a couple questions, also, but seemed to forget them. haha. But, I do remember that I wanted to ask what you use as a heat source and if you have live plants in the soil??
07/09/07  06:15pm

 #1352026


Ravenn
View Profile



   Message To: Shiftylarry   In reference to Message Id: 1350297


 Tile floor for many herp types?

You know what Shftlarry, most people in my position would probably fight back and argue with you or something, but you’ve actually got me thinking about the whole flat-foot thing. Though, I’m not just gonna turn around and change all my substrate right away.

What I’m gonna do is change up one my vivariums. I’ll re-do my 30gal and keep it half slate like already have and half top-soil like you advise. I’ll keep it that way for about a month to see how they react to it and see which side is more desirable to them.

I’m gonna go to Home Depot in a couple hours to buy that topsoil, and I’ll try to post pics if I can. If not then I’ll just do an update in about a month.

I had a couple questions, also, but seemed to forget them. haha. But, I do remember that I wanted to ask what you use as a heat source and if you have live plants in the soil??
07/09/07  06:15pm

 #1352090


Ahope
View Profile



   Message To: Ravenn   In reference to Message Id: 1352026


 Tile floor for many herp types?

I think that the main problem with loose soil/sand is with young leo’s, as they impact much easier than an adult. They get to be adult size with in a year. My opinion (which I do admit I am not too experienced) is that until it is an adult that it should be kept on a ’safe’ substrate, such as several layers of paper towels (so it’s padded) then once it’s an adult (or if it’s an adult already) then the mix should be ok. I would just every so often check their stomach, and check their poop to see if there is sand being passed, and make sure it gets it’s supplements. The other thing that I have heard (have not experienced) is that an adult can have a type of impaction that builds over time, this would be more likely if they are hunting and accidentally ingest substrate while they get their meal, they pick up a little bit here and there and eventually it builds up enough into an impaction.

Again... this is my opinion based on the information I’ve gathered and the amount of time I’ve had my own leo.



07/09/07  06:50pm

 #1352135


Shiftylarry
View Profile



   Message To: Ahope   In reference to Message Id: 1352090


 Tile floor for many herp types?

Ravenn, I appreciate you trying out my advice. In my opinion, if your lizard spends a lot of time digging in the new substrate, he must feel the urge to do it. In that case, why not keep it? But see for yourself and tell me what you think.

Ahope, yes, substrate could potentially build over time. But often impaction is not the fault of the substrate, but of the owner’s husbandry. That is to say that animals not kept at optimum conditions cannot regulate their internal systems properly. I myself have swallowed chicken bones, cherry seeds, bubble gum, ect. but I’m still kickin. Same with my lizards. They often ingest dirt when attacking crickets, but because I use a temp gun and monitor my temperatures daily, I’ve never had a case of impaction. Which reminds me, temp guns are life savers. I recommend them highly for all herp keepers.

-Chris
07/09/07  07:16pm

 #1352328


Yavie
View Profile



   Message To: Shiftylarry   In reference to Message Id: 1352135


 Tile floor for many herp types?

Temp gun? Can you post a link to one?



07/09/07  09:38pm

 #1352901


Shiftylarry
View Profile



   Message To: Yavie   In reference to Message Id: 1352328


 Tile floor for many herp types?

Absolutely
Link
Also available at most home depots.

-Chris
07/10/07  09:49am

 #1353604


Ravenn
View Profile



   Message To: Shiftylarry   In reference to Message Id: 1352901


 Tile floor for many herp types?

shiftylarry, is there anything beside topsoil that you know of is also good for diggin/burrowing??
i bought topsoil and it honestly smells soo bad, just like manuer(sp?) or something. i don’t think i can put that stuff in my room, man. i just can’t handle it.

so, if you know of anything, please let me know. also, do you know if washed plaster sand is ok for?



07/10/07  08:01pm

 #1353633


Ravenn
View Profile



   Message To: Shiftylarry   In reference to Message Id: 1352901


 Tile floor for many herp types?

shiftylarry, is there anything beside topsoil that you know of is also good for diggin/burrowing??
i bought topsoil and it honestly smells soo bad, just like manuer(sp?) or something. i don’t think i can put that stuff in my room, man. i just can’t handle it.

so, if you know of anything, please let me know. also, do you know if washed plaster sand is ok for?



07/10/07  08:27pm

 #1353896


Ameivaboy
View Profile



   Message To: Ravenn   In reference to Message Id: 1353633


 Tile floor for many herp types?

all i have to say is


^5 shifty larry
07/11/07  06:27am

 #1354258


Ravenn
View Profile



   Message To: Ameivaboy   In reference to Message Id: 1353896


 Tile floor for many herp types?

what does "<5" mean
07/11/07  01:19pm

 #1354488


ShyBoy
View Profile



   Message To: Ravenn   In reference to Message Id: 1354258


 Tile floor for many herp types?

high five... and it’s ^ not <
07/11/07  04:24pm

 #1354783


Shiftylarry
View Profile



   Message To: ShyBoy   In reference to Message Id: 1354488


 Tile floor for many herp types?

Ravenn, check the kind of soil you’re using. It shouldn’t smell all that bad. Also, concerning the substrate you mentioned. I’ve personally never used it, so I guess I’m not qualified to say if it’s good or bad. But I will say that it seems too loose to be stable and most of the people who I know that succesfully keep reptiles use dirt. I can tell by your question that you’re on a mission for the "perfect substrate". It doesn’t exist. Sorry, and don’t be misled by Zilla or Zoomed or whomever that there is one. All they want is your money. If anything can be given the title of "miracle substrate", it’s dirt. Best part, it’s dirt cheap haha...

Oh and AmeivaBoy, ^5 right back at cha.

-Chris
07/11/07  07:15pm

 #1356175


Ravenn
View Profile



   Message To: Shiftylarry   In reference to Message Id: 1354783


 Tile floor for many herp types?

I have the vivarium set up already. I used an extra 20L lying around in my garage. Calisto(femaleHTCT) and Zephyr(female albino) are in there right now. I used topsoil and sand so it doesn’t get so humid. There’s a UTH on the right side with home-made hides and two store bought ones as well. Their main hide which they sleep in, has half salte and half dirt so they can choose which side they prefer to lye on. This way I can see which is more comfortable for them.

Last night was the first night for them in their new set up. They were pretty active, but no digging. They fell asleep on the slate side of the hide. Today when I got home from work, just now, I saw Calisto on the slate side and Zephyr in the log. They haven’t reacted to the dirt very much so far, hopefully they do though.

I plan on keeping them in this set up for about a month or two to see how they like it. If they don’t seem too fond of it, then out it goes. Although I’m still hoping for the best. I’ll try to post pics ASAP...
07/12/07  08:52pm

 #1356252


Shiftylarry
View Profile



   Message To: Ravenn   In reference to Message Id: 1356175


 Tile floor for many herp types?

Quote:

has half salte and half dirt so they can choose which side they prefer to lye on.



When they get used to it, they’ll probably dig under the slate to make a hide.
07/12/07  09:50pm

 #1356598


Ravenn
View Profile



   Message To: Shiftylarry   In reference to Message Id: 1356252


 Tile floor for many herp types?

if you’re worried about them getting injured by digging under the slate, don’t because i put a stack of two pieces of slate on that one side of the hide so it matches up with the heighth of the dirt. so, there’s no dirt underneath the slate for them to dig out except for a piece of slate sitting up against a rock(on the cold side) holding it’s weight up which i put so they can dig underneath. i’m gonna try and post those pics, so you can critique it better.
07/13/07  01:41am

 #1357194


Ravenn
View Profile



   Message To: Ravenn   In reference to Message Id: 1356598


 Tile floor for many herp types?

good news...second night so far and calisto has been digging in the corner of her hide. also, in the humid hide, i took the moss out and replaced it with just topsoil(no sand) and zephyr’s been in there all morning. i think some of the digging is due to the fact that they may be pregnant...
07/13/07  02:22pm

 #1368275


Marg
View Profile



   Message To: Shiftylarry   In reference to Message Id: 1356252


 Tile floor for many herp types?

Ummmm... I have a stupid question ...can you "bake" the dirt, from like out in the yard, to kill any germs, etc., like you do for branches/logs people use in their vivs?

I don’t have any lizards, yet, but may in the future. Just soaking in the info here



07/21/07  09:43am
Pages 1 2 Next


Back to Cages and Enclosures Forum   Forums   Home   Members Area