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 #1594247


KIP NIF
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 Chameleon species

which chameleon species can be handled the most? i was leaning more towards a jacksons chameleon. would a 2by2by4 foot cage be decent for the first year or could i get something smaller? do jacksons chams change color like other chams can acording to their mood or temperature? post pics of your different chams too please.


thx



01/25/08  07:11pm

 #1594612


KIP NIF
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  Message To: KIP NIF   In reference to Message Id: 1594247


 Chameleon species

also would one of those condensing water on the ceiling of the enclosure systems be good for drinking water since it collects on leaves and that air tubes breed bacteria so i assume this would be safer and............BUMP



01/25/08  10:49pm

 #1595165


KIP NIF
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  Message To: KIP NIF   In reference to Message Id: 1594612


 Chameleon species

BUMP?



01/26/08  12:18pm

 #1595936


Mastiffgrrl
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  Message To: KIP NIF   In reference to Message Id: 1595165


 Chameleon species

To answer your first question, do not buy a cham to handle it.

If you are seriously going to get a cham, you need to buy it with the mindset that after it’s 4-5 months old, it will not allow you to handle it. To do so will only stress it and shorten its life. At that point, it will become something fun to watch, and remain like that for the rest of its life.

Before mine was 5 months old, he accepted being handled, but at 5 months to the day, he decided that that was it, and I haven’t touched him since(except to move him to his adult enclosure, which I did wearing oven mitts so that I didn’t get a bare skin bite).

This is my cham, Deuce, I think at 8 months. I go into his cage to put bugs in his dish, and clean his cage once in a while, but that’s it. I am entirely hands off.



01/26/08  09:33pm

 #1598254


Boothy
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  Message To: Mastiffgrrl   In reference to Message Id: 1595936


 Chameleon species

sorry but if you want to handle a reptile alot then chameleons are NOT! your kind of animal they dispise it really ahah what if something about 3/4 the size of you came in and went to grab you id be a lil peed OFF! but as mastifgirl stated above to handle your cham will result in stress and stress on these poor fragile reptiles results in sicknesses or even sudden death because when they are stressed there imune system seems to get kicked in the nuts and any parasites in the body cant be faught off resulting in either death or sickness with a very nice looking vet bill so please reconsider if you want something to handle a leopard gecko or Bearded dragon will be the reptile for you but as for chameleons they are a look with your eyes and not with your hands kind of reptile and Us chameleon keepers respect that and how peaceful they are just left alone , one of natures wonders of the world!



01/28/08  12:52pm

 #1600250


X_DRO_x
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  Message To: KIP NIF   In reference to Message Id: 1594247


 Chameleon species

try a cat, or a dog maybe if you want to pet your animals.



01/29/08  05:09pm

 #1600326


Jonas77
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  Message To: X_DRO_x   In reference to Message Id: 1600250


 Chameleon species

Many good answers, to summarize:

There are no social reptiles, the concept simply does not exist. Handling, or "petting" any reptile is a one way interaction (in other words not INTERaction, maybe just action). No good can come out of handling reptiles, it only please you as an owner. In the best case scenario the reptile will land on 0, taking no damage but it will NEVER benefit from it. Chameleons will not land on 0, they will stress out from handling.



01/29/08  05:40pm

 #1602103


Shabooboo
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  Message To: Jonas77   In reference to Message Id: 1600326


 Chameleon species

this is to jonas77. there are social reptiles it is just not the smaller kinds of reps. like for example a Argentine black and white tegu is the most social and the smartest of all lizards!!! so do sum research before you say anything lol sorry bout being HARSH and sorry again ;[



01/30/08  07:17pm

 #1602637


Jonas77
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  Message To: Shabooboo   In reference to Message Id: 1602103


 Chameleon species

No, you are wrong. YOU might do "sum" research though, Ive done mine. Maybe wikipedia can teach you about social animals?



01/31/08  01:30am

 #1602814


LunaC
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  Message To: Shabooboo   In reference to Message Id: 1602103


 Shabooboo ...

Perhaps you are confusing "social" with "tolerant". There are no "social" reptiles. Dogs are social, cats and birds can be social. Even ants, bees and other insect species are social as far as communal living and interaction with one another. Reptiles? No.

Reptiles can be tolerant of human interaction. Reptiles can learn to associate you with food or freedom from an enclosure. Reptiles do not seek you out for companionship or comfort or just to hang out with you because you’re cool. A tegu won’t roll over on it’s back for you to rub it’s tummy, it simply may learn to accept that you rub it’s tummy. The tegu won’t seek you out for that.

Of course there are exceptions. One reptile may be quite a bit more tolerant than another, but that same tolerant reptile doesn’t care if it’s you or anyone else who is handling/feeding it. It may learn to recognize you, but it really doesn’t care.



01/31/08  09:31am

 #1605269


LunaC
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  Message To: KIP NIF   In reference to Message Id: 1594247


 Chameleon species

And to answer your questions. No chameleon species can be handled more than another. In fact, they don’t like to be handled at all. Period.

A 2 x 2 x 4 is fine. Chams do like tall cages. For a very young cham, however, something smaller would be more suitable, then moving to the larger cage as the cham matures.

Jackson’s don’t change colors like Panthers (since I’m assuming those are the ones you are referring to).



02/01/08  09:49pm

 #1606167


Juicy619
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  Message To: LunaC   In reference to Message Id: 1605269


 Chameleon species

well it all depends cuz i have 8 chameleons two vel. three panthers ...one jackson and two pigmigs all of my panthers like to be handle when i walk in to the room them come close to me and all a do is stick my hand in and they clime right on ... me vel ..male does that too and pigmigs too .... the only one i dont get cuz shes pretty mean is my female vel....it all depend how u treat them .... baby is easier to tame



02/02/08  03:31pm

 #1606435


LunaC
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  Message To: Juicy619   In reference to Message Id: 1606167


 Juicy ....

Uh ... pigmigs? Vel ?

I know what species you’re probably talking about, I just wonder if you do. You’ve been a member here for 5 months. Your profile mentions no chameleons, even though you mention your other reptiles.

My experience and opinion stands. It doesn’t depend on how you treat them. They’ll respond the same no matter what. Yes, they can be conditioned to approach the front of a cage looking for a handout.
Yes, they can be conditioned to handfeed. Mine do that. They still don’t want to be cuddled or touched or handled, whether you care for them perfectly or neglect them.

And yes, babies are much more tolerant of handling. When chams reach sexual maturity, then instinct takes over. Instinct makes them solitary, defensive and when necessary, aggressive.



02/02/08  06:48pm

 #1610076


Dumb1
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  Message To: KIP NIF   In reference to Message Id: 1594247


 Chameleon species

lol easy up guys...
you can "hold" a reptile its not a bad thing! I dunno
but if i was a reptile, i think i would want a chance to get the
heck out of my cage....
Plus haven’t you ever petted your rep, and have it react to a good spot?
i have a snake that loves his neck to be scratched...
my turtle and gecko love to have their hands scratched too...
They literally put their heads to my finger....

I guess everyone has their own opinion bout it.
I personally think its fine to hold your reptiles, maybe not all the time...but yeah

And to answer KIP NIF question, i personally love the veiled chameleon,
i once had one tht would change colors non-stop when i had him on my finger
they when i put him back he turned black, and wanted out! it was quite cute.



02/04/08  10:04pm

 #1610328


Jonas77
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  Message To: Dumb1   In reference to Message Id: 1610076


 Chameleon species

Quote:

lol easy up guys...



I not sure we’re all guys, but I don’t see why we should ease up when it comes to animal welfare.

Quote:

you can "hold" a reptile its not a bad thing!



Really? What are you building that on, the scientific articles I have read contradict your statement.
Here are some articles you might find interesting:
Cabanac M and Gosselin F (1993). Emotional fever in the lizard Callopistes maculatus. Animal behaviour 46:200-202
Cabanac C and Cabanac M (2000). Heart rate response to gentle handling of frog and lizard. Behavioural processes 52:89-95

Quote:

I dunno
but if i was a reptile, i think i would want a chance to get the
heck out of my cage....



No, if you were a reptile you would not understand the difference. As a human we are alone in having the capability to think outside of our species, but you are not doing it right. You are thinking of what you as a human would want. Besides, if you have these thoughts, you might want to get your animals larger cages...

Quote:

Plus haven’t you ever petted your rep, and have it react to a good spot?
i have a snake that loves his neck to be scratched...
my turtle and gecko love to have their hands scratched too...
They literally put their heads to my finger....



And HOW do you make the conclusion that this is a sign of your animals liking your treatment? What information are you building this statement on? The reason I’m asking is that I can’t see the same conclusion, despite my education in the subject.
You dont really take in consideration the physiological stress the animal suffer from (unconsciously) when you deprive it from its optimal habitat in its cage.

Quote:

I guess everyone has their own opinion bout it.
I personally think its fine to hold your reptiles, maybe not all the time...but yeah



Mmmm, no. An opinion is something subjective one think of something. There are pretty clear laws that tell you what to do when it comes to animal welfare. I can’t skin a cat alive because i think it is OK. It might be more lethal to skin a cat alive than to pet your reptiles, yet the principle is the same as both do the animal damage, it only takes longer to kill the reptile from handling.


Quote:

And to answer KIP NIF question, i personally love the veiled chameleon,
i once had one tht would change colors non-stop when i had him on my finger
they when i put him back he turned black, and wanted out! it was quite cute.



I rest my case. You ARE ignorant. The same story you just told (thinking it was cute) can be told and explained as an extremely stressed chameleon that showed clear signs of it. Not cute.
Let me guess, the chameleon died from old age?



02/05/08  02:51am

 #1610516


Dumb1
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  Message To: Jonas77   In reference to Message Id: 1610328


 Chameleon species

Wow. See this is why this forum sucks ***
Everyone On here is so ****ing mean.

You "guys" think you know about everything.
Can you talk to animals? Is that why you know sooo much about their ’welfare’?

(btw guys is a form of everyone. Would you like me to say ladies and gentlemen???)

See on THIS HORRID FORUM you cant put your own input into posts, without getting freaking yelled at! Gawd.

Quote:

Really? What are you building that on, the scientific articles I have read contradict your statement.
Here are some articles you might find interesting:
Cabanac M and Gosselin F (1993). Emotional fever in the lizard Callopistes maculatus. Animal behaviour 46:200-202
Cabanac C and Cabanac M (2000). Heart rate response to gentle handling of frog and lizard. Behavioural processes 52:89-95


Doesnt your heart rate go up when some one you like touches you? And doesnt a heart rate of a dog go up when your petting it? Nothing concludes anything.

Quote:

No, if you were a reptile you would not understand the difference. As a human we are alone in having the capability to think outside of our species, but you are not doing it right. You are thinking of what you as a human would want.


Animals in captivity are affected by extreme boredom, lack of appropriate exercise, poor quality food and a lack of variety of food. Look it up.

Quote:

Besides, if you have these thoughts, you might want to get your animals larger cages...


You the hell do you think you are?? I have spent thousands of dollars on my animals to make them happy. Dont you dare criticize me.

All the animals i have had, have lived LONGER then their live span.
And IF they were so unhappy, then they would have died of stress!

Quote:

And HOW do you make the conclusion that this is a sign of your animals liking your treatment? What information are you building this statement on? The reason I’m asking is that I can’t see the same conclusion, despite my education in the subject.
You dont really take in consideration the physiological stress the animal suffer from (unconsciously) when you deprive it from its optimal habitat in its cage.


AND HOW DO YOU KNOW!??!? Lemme see your degree professor.
habitat? hahaha dude its a cage. something that restricts freedom as a cage restricts movement.
A true habitat is in the wild. And the sad thing is none of our reptiles can go back into the wild
simply because we feed them dead animals, keep the humidity and temp for them. And dont no how to protect themselves against predators. They would most likely die.

How many reptiles did you kill to get your statements and opinions? Since your such an expert.
You seem more like a scorn person, then a person that is giving good advice. Maybe you should not blow up and think how say things appropriately...

Quote:

I rest my case. You ARE ignorant. The same story you just told (thinking it was cute) can be told and explained as an extremely stressed chameleon that showed clear signs of it. Not cute.
Let me guess, the chameleon died from old age?


Your a fool. Why do you think your hypothesis is correct? What makes you think that every single bit of crap that comes out of your mouth is right? You have no idea why he was changing so many colors. "They change their skin color according to their feelings. Most chameleons are plain in color unless they are excited."

"People who think nothing of handling various pet mammals and birds without thinking much about how to do it are often at a loss when confronted with something that has no fur or feathers. In fact, holding a reptile isn’t much different than holding any other animal. You must support its body weight so that it feels comfortable and secure. Reptiles do get to know people who interact with them, recognizing them by sight, scent, even the sound of the voice. They remember people who made them feel less than comfortable and secure, and may respond to those individuals by getting a bit hissy and/or drawing away from them. They also remember people who handle them properly, and it is not unusual for some lizards and snakes to approach such a person when it looks like they are going to be picked up." ©1997 Melissa Kaplan

Your,
Nemesis



02/05/08  11:24am

 #1612072


Jonas77
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  Message To: Dumb1   In reference to Message Id: 1610516


 Chameleon species

Its all very funny, your choice of name is too. I have not read your whole text as it is filled with nonsense, so I will only say this (and I think it will answer most of your questions).

As a scientifically interested person one is always open for one thing in particular: The fact that we dont know everything. How ever, we use a very logic and special method to work with the information we have and to get new information, its called "scientific method" (look it up).

I think I know somethings, mostly because I have spent 5 years studying various aspects of biology at the university, but also because of my 20 year interest in herpetology.
Every single sentence I have written can be backed up by scientific papers and other references. How many of yours can?

I find it interesting that you ask me "how do you know", (the answer is written above), but how do YOU know?



02/06/08  06:06am

 #1613243


LunaC
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  Message To: Dumb1   In reference to Message Id: 1610516


 Dumb1

While you’ve cited Melissa Kaplan, who’s experience and knowledge I do respect, especially with iguanas, you’ve forgotten one thing. She’s talking herps in general ... not specifically chameleons, which are much more fragile and much more demanding than most common herps. Did you by chance read what she had to say specifically about chameleons? I suspect not, so here it is:

Melissa Kaplan’s Herp Care Collection
"For extensive information on true chameleons, including care and species information, check out the excellent sites maintained by Michael Fry for the Chameleon Information Network, as well as The Chameleon Journals and AdCham."

That’s about it from Melissa on chameleons. Ok, so since even Melissa has referred readers to more experienced, more knowlegable chameleon experts, let’s see what they have to say on the subject.

Chameleon Information Network
"Most chameleons experience some level of stress related to captivity. Chronic stress can be fatal to chameleons because it usually suppresses the immune system, making them more susceptible to bacterial infections, the proliferation of parasites, and other life-threatening health problems.
The following recommendations will help reduce stress in captive chameleons:

1. Keep the cage in a low or no traffic area of your home.
2. House chameleons singly and out of visual range of other chameleons, birds, snakes, other reptiles or any other pets in your household.
3. Remove or block any surface that the chameleon can see it’s own reflection in. every encounter of this type.
4. Do not force handling on chameleons that display defensively (rocking, gaping, hissing, biting, etc.) or react by closing their eyes and becoming motionless. Chronic, low-level stress from forced handling usually leads to poor health in chameleons and should be avoided. When a chameleon must be handled, place your hand in front of the chameleon and allow it to walk onto your fingers, but do not grasp a chameleon’s neck, back, feet or tail unless it is absolutely necessary to restrain it."

Chameleon Journals (referred to by Melissa on her site) is no longer in existence, and AdCham is more a database of species information rather than husbandry information.
However, here’s a snippet from another well-respected chameleon keeper:

Chameleon News -Common Myths
Common Myths of Chameleon Husbandry: Cautionary notes for the new chameleon owner: By Ed Pollak, PhD
"Myth #12: Chameleons should be handled frequently so they become friendly when they are older.

Fact: Chameleons should be regarded as strictly “look but do not touch” animals. Some, such as veiled chameleons are typically quite aggressive and can give a painful (although rarely very injurious) bite. Others rarely bite. Nevertheless, chameleons are solitary animals and handling is invariably stressful. Constant handling is a stressor that evokes the secretion of various hormones that, among other things, inhibit the body’s immune system. The result can be a dramatically shortened lifespan. New keepers often say such things as “But my chameleon likes me! Whenever I open the cage he climbs out to me and crawls up my arm.”
Such statements are a prime example of anthropomorphizing our chameleons’ behavior, i.e., of attributing human motivations and emotions to our animals. There is virtually no scientific evidence that a solitary-living animal such as a chameleon forms any sort of affectionate bond with another chameleon, much less with a member of a large, strange primate species such as Homo sapiens. Neither is there evidence that early handling will make an animal less aggressive.
Certainly, hand feeding a chameleon will teach him to associate you with food and might even cause him to approach you when the cage door opens. But it does not facilitate the formation of a “bond” and it likely does not reduce the stress of handling. Certainly there are some chameleons that react less aggressively to handling but that is not evidence that the chameleon enjoys being handled or that the handling has no deleterious effects on chameleon health. Chameleons, like every other living organism, exhibit behavioral differences. But to believe that early handling changes the animal’s personality is to confuse an anecdotal tale with scientific proof.
The fact is that virtually all long-term keepers, whose animals routinely live to ripe old ages, avoid handling their animals except when cage cleaning or other maintenance issues require it."

*************************************************************************************

We are not "so ****ing mean" and this forum does not suck. We give information based on years of experience, multiple chameleons and proven research. Not just because one time we had a chameleon (but it died) and now we’re experts. Perhaps ours is just not the information YOU want to hear.

(What’s with the "Your Nemesis" ?? Too funny!)




02/06/08  09:51pm

 #1613324


Pixiedust
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  Message To: Dumb1   In reference to Message Id: 1610516


 Chameleon species

btw ignorant means uneducated on the subject matter at hand, not an insult. you however named yourself dumb1. i think luna and jonas took care of the rest. and out of curiousity, what forum do you go to that promotes regular handling of chams?



02/06/08  10:17pm

 #1617600


Jerald
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  Message To: KIP NIF   In reference to Message Id: 1594247


 Chameleon species

try pigmy leaf chameleons!! i think their the smallest speicies of chameleons and they sometimes like to be handled!



02/10/08  11:04am

 #1618595


Ambiguous
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  Message To: KIP NIF   In reference to Message Id: 1594247


 Chameleon species

Everyone needs to chill out this place is made to help all of us reptile owners proffesional and amature, weather your a proffesional breeder or a kid with a corn snake. And i do agree some reptiles probably should not be handled at all like chameleons it also depends on the animal itself i have heard of and seen plenty of people who handle there chameleons or have them on there shoulder, whatever and the chameleon could careless, and others who deffinatly should not be handled at all, even though there not as smart as you and me they have diff. personalities. it is fine to handle some and not. i have had plenty of cats who dont want to be held or touched haha and they let you know they dont like it!, but people are going to handle there reptiles and thats it so stop pestering and scolding people on here about, i know a lot of you who go to collage think theres no other way but chill out there is. herps are just a fun lovable hobby for many.



02/10/08  08:25pm

 #1620414


Dagobert
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  Message To: Ambiguous   In reference to Message Id: 1618595


 Chameleon species

Quote:

but people are going to handle there reptiles and thats it so stop pestering and scolding people on here about



Why should the topic stop being discussed simply because people are going to do it anyway? You’re right, many people are going to handle their reptiles regardless of how badly it stresses them but those people people can deal with the scolding. As far as a retile forum goes, the welfare of the animals should take priority over people feelings.

Quote:

have had plenty of cats who dont want to be held or touched haha and they let you know they dont like it!



How is this applicable to reptiles?

Quote:

but chill out there is. herps are just a fun lovable hobby for many.



That’s the sad part. For too many people, it’s entirely about their enjoyment and the animals welfare takes a back seat. Lets keep in mind for a moment that this isn’t just a hobby, an animals life in contingent on your knowledge and your care. Handling any lizard is entirely for the enjoyment of the keeper, it certainly isn’t for the enjoyment of the lizard.



02/12/08  01:05am

 #1620629


LunaC
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  Message To: Dagobert   In reference to Message Id: 1620414


 Dagobert ....

Thank you. Well said.



02/12/08  10:56am

 #1623395


Maddie_Madelynn
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  Message To: KIP NIF   In reference to Message Id: 1594612


 Chameleon species

so you guys like lizserds
  • [Link][Image]

    Quote:



  • 02/14/08  11:25am

     #1623478


    Boothy
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      Message To: Dagobert   In reference to Message Id: 1620414


     Chameleon species

    no where not all mean we are just trying to prove a fact that all lizards do infact get stressed when we handle them , its the simpliest thing to achieve just dont handle them! PERIOD! , you also say soon as you open your cage door your cham comes running to you , there has to be a reason why your chameleon doesnt like its enclosure or it wouldnt be using you as a gateway to get out of its enclosure so there has to be something bothering him in there maybe to less of space or just to much of an open area all these things affect a chameleon in there home and can stress them , as an example hand feeding is another gateway to get a chameleon onto you or to handle it , the chameleon totally forgets about you because you are hypmotizing the animal to eat and not see you , or they are just using you as a tree to get to another higher spot , this is why most keepers make sure there cages are above eye level because a chameleon feels safer being at the highest point this resulting in less stress , but i totally agree with jonas and LunaC and dagobert , less stress on a chameleon is a happy chameleon , thats why they live almost solitary alone except breeding time in the wild they just like to be left alone and we respect that because we like to be left alone at times unlike those ppl who handle weekly and daily they just dont respect that animals needs and requirements



    02/14/08  01:19pm

     #1629233


    GotHerps?
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      Message To: Boothy   In reference to Message Id: 1623478


     Chameleon species

    i cant believe i took the time to read this whole rant



    02/19/08  12:16am

     #1629515


    Boothy
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      Message To: GotHerps?   In reference to Message Id: 1629233


     Chameleon species

    ahaha your loss



    02/19/08  12:36pm

     #1634390


    Whiplash Hornet
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      Message To: Boothy   In reference to Message Id: 1629515


     Chameleon species

    Quote:

    You say reptiles can’t be tamed? you’ve obviously never had a corn snake. No not all reptiles will tame but to say NO reptiles will tame is completley wrong. Many reptiles will become tame although not neccesairly affectionate and they will seek human interaction, small lizard and some snake predominantley, even amphibians will tame and enjoy being hand fed. I’m sorry but if they’ve proven that the Komodo Dragon, a 9ft lizard capable of killing a small elephant (Thats why they evolved so big) can ’effectivley’ tame, recignise and be affectionate towards their keeper then i dont belive that reptiles (especially snakes who actually enjoy handling) cannot be tame and affectionate.



    Quote:

    i agree all the way. i believe that, no, not all reptiles will become "tame" and "affectionate," but i have never heard anything so stubborn as to have everyone say that no reptile can become something along the lines of tame. yes, they are curious and will most likely recognize you for food, but they aren’t as heartless as you may think. it is true that reptiles act mostly on instinct, and because of this our preseption (forgive me for spelling) of them is that they only eat and reproduce and so it proves that they cannot interact somewhat effectionatly with humans, but that shouldn’t be the case at all. my bearded dragon Spike that i’ve owned for maybe three or four years now wouldn’t let me put him down for around and hour and a half after a reptile presentation we did. no, it’s definately not because of warmth, for i am always freezing-cold, not to mention it was the seering hot summer. and no, it’s not because of food either. he wasn’t even on my shoulder to get a view, he was on my arm, and when i tried to put him back into his terrarium he would grip my arm very tightly, until i finally pulled him off. i went to shut his lid and he jumped back on, and so i found myself carrying him around with me until he decided it was time to get off. there was no force at all, as it is clearly shown.

    my point is, not all reptiles are heartless eating machines. they, like every other animal, can become trusting and possibly even effectionate toward keepers. i don’t think of my reptiles as pets, nor do i hold them on a constant basis, but have come to think of them as friends with all due respect for their natural behaviours. i have owned reptiles since i was four, in fact i still have a few living from that time. don’t get me wrong, i’m not saying i’m the best because i ’m sure there are far better keepers than me out there, but i’m simply saying that i have observed reptiles and been fascinated by them for many years and have come to believe that not all reptiles act completely out of instinct.

    reptiles themselves know who likes them, who is afraid, and who doesn’t like them. for example, i went into petco (don’t buy anything there, by the way) and a lady was having trougle with a Florida Kingsnake. the snake was crapping all over her, musking her, and squirming like it was about to get eaten. so i walked over and asked if i could try to hold it, and so she gladly handed it over to me. you know what happened? it stopped squirming, etc. the second it was in my hand. that snake was not tamed by any means, and i was not forcely handling it. i simply let it sit in the palm of my hand, not fingers curled around it or anything. now, i’m not sure what anybody wants to call that, but i know it wasn’t because it was tired out.

    P.S. i’m not going to tell anybody that all reptiles can or will be tamed, nor to handle their reptiles daily, but i will say that maybe a few people need to broaden their horizon. looks into things that they never considered before because they think they know everything there is to know about their reptiles. the fact is, how do you know reptiles like or dislike anything? can you read their minds? if you can i would love to know what they told you. none of us are in any position to speak for our herps when they can’t even speak for themselves.

    inferno - sorry it’s so long



    I’m not meaning Chameleons now, just reptiles in general. What you forget is that Reptiles have only really just begun to become domesticated. At some point it was the same for cats and dogs there would be people saying, "I caught this cat and it loves human company" while others would say "Don’t be stupid, no animal likes to be around humans, they see you as a nuisence and all you are doing is stressing them and shortening their life. You should just leave them in a cage all day and only open it to feed and clean them, they don’t want anymore attention than that" and look how wrong that person was. Of course this is just an example but it’s what would have happened. There would be cats that despised Humans (of course there still are) and few that enjoyed the company, so to say reptiles don’t is a very underdeveloped statement. Of course you may be thinking how on earth have cats got anything to do with reptiles. Well if you look as this from the point of view as someone such as a zoologist they would say that you were wrong and that bevahivour is just as subject to evolution as apperance. From a Scientific view such as this you cannot possibly prove your point or disprove mine. Obviously not all reptiles like Humans but you would need to be incredibly narrow sighted to say that none do. Of course this is how animals like cats started out and look at them now. Of course I’m not saying that all reptiles will be curling up on your lap or purring when you stroke them but I’m saying that you can’t answer a question by one (your own) experience. For all we know reptiles will develop a much more affectionate personailty over time. I’m not saying that reptiles want to be my best friend or anything, but to say no reptiles like humans is a statement that you cannot possibly EVER prove. Sorry to be harsh but I’ve seen this argument crop up far too many times and quite frankly I’m sick of it. From the point of view of a zoologist I can conclude that you must be wrong and all animals are capable of change and we can only tell the results through time. I think this argument needs to end. You can’t prove me wrong or prove your point right and I can’t prove you wrong either. However look at the history of mankind and then have a guess at the future, from the point of view of the zoologist I sure hope and belive that you are wrong.

    Hornet



    02/23/08  03:24am


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