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 #2062052


ThePetCastle
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 Senegal chameleon looks sick/dying, need advice

Hello, its me again, this time with an urgent need for information. After posting this, I will search the rest of the net, but the best advice seems to come from here, so I look here first.

I have a senegal chameleon, 2 actually, in a zoomed screen enclosure with all the proper light/heat/space/food/water/etc according to several online care sheets. These chameleons actually belong to my neighbor in the shopping center I am in, and we babysit them Thursday evening til Monday morning. The entire cage gets moved back and forth and, to the best of my knowledge, they receive the same care in both businesses. We have been doing this for several months, and it has worked very well.
This weekend, when they came in, they were both as healthy looking as usual. This morning, they both looked fine, but nowin the course of a day, one of them has taken sick. the symptoms are; 1. turned yellow, and now yellow/black, 2. won’t eat, 3. swollen body and throat, 4. did take water, but not much when offered, 5. recent development is mouth won’t close and tongue seems out of place, 6. back left leg is stiff.
Again, this has cropped up over about a 4 hour period and has quickly gotten worse. My first goal in this is to find out if I can do anything for him. I want to save him if at all possible. But, should he not make it, I want to be able to have a reason when the owner comes to pick them up. One more thing to note, there are two chameleons in this cage, it is 16X16X24 ish, the other chameleon is doing perfectly fine. There has never been any reports of them becoming aggressive toward each other.
Thanks to any and all who may be able to offer any advice and suggestions.

P.S. Not to hijack my own thread, but a few weeks ago, we had baby Jackson’s chameleon babies. Of the 16 live births, one with a club foot did not survive, and we recently lost two others who seemed to be on the runt side. 13 out of 16 still alive and very much kicking, we will be separating them very soon.



08/22/09  08:14pm

 #2062116


Xanthoman
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   Message To: ThePetCastle   In reference to Message Id: 2062052


 Senegal chameleon looks sick/dying, need advice

the first thing i would do is get him as hydrated as possible , chams dont adapt well to change, i would suspect that every time they are moved it creates a certain amount of internal stress that could be part of the issue, that being said it sounds to me like it could be related to (in addition to the stress of being moved to often ) some form of over supplementation , most cham keepers who have things go wrong were convinced they were doing everything right , up until things did go wrong , all of that being said , anyone would need to have the actual information as to their husbandry and keeping practices [rather than just a claim that all is being done properly (ie lighting temps supplementle regimen etc.)in order to make any sort of beneficial assesment. chams manifest any problems in their enviroment as internal stress that often doesnt have any outward signs until it shows up as a health problem that is usually difficult to reverse, generally speaking chams need to be housed seperately and out of sight of each other (there are a few exceptions, but otherwise should be part of anyones basic cham keeping knowledge ) i will say this zoo med doesnt make any screen cages that are large enough to house chams together which in most cases should be avoided and only attempted by very experinced keepers if at all, i know none of this is all that helpful, but you wanted my assesment and here it is , get them to a qualified herp vet asap, [assuming they live (doesnt sound good)] get them setup in individual cages out of sight of each other, and join cf so you can post the details of all keeping practices for a review by a large number of experinced keepers with a knowledge base larger than you will find on any of the other forums . cf is dedicated almost entirely to the care and keeping of chameleons and it is there you are likely to find the best answers (besides the herp vet)



08/22/09  09:53pm

 #2062165


LunaC
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   Message To: ThePetCastle   In reference to Message Id: 2062052


 Senegal chameleon looks sick/dying, need advice

As posted previously, both chams should absolutely NOT be in the same cage. Rule #1.
First and foremost, they need their own space. The cage they both are currently housed in is way too small as well.

You say they have the proper light/heat/food/water, etc according to care sheets, so I presume they do have a UVB source, the correct basking bulb and basking temp, humidity and get plenty of dripping water.

Senegals are probably the most widely offered WC chams in the industry and inexpensive to wholesale as well as retail. Chances are those poor little chams are wild caught and will certainly not fare well in captivity even if only Rule #1 (above) is violated.

Also as previously posted, chams are notoriously solitary and stress easily. They’re not like other reptiles. Certainly moving the cage constantly will cause stress and a decline in health over time.

I’m sorry to say that the rapid decline of the one cham sounds ominous and the outcome probably not a good one for that cham.
Since you only babysit, you probably don’t know what daily care is provided, but perhaps they lack good quality gut-loaded feeders and supplements.
Unfortunately, pet stores are notorious for providing only the minimal care necessary to keep an animal alive, not really catering to a species individual needs. Just the basics till they can make a sale.
(I’m not judging the store that owns them, however)

The best you can do at this point is separate them, provide the care you know they need and perhaps educate the owners if you are able to do so tactfully. You’re in a diffcult position being their babysitter and business associate!

On a brighter note, congrats on your Jackson’s babies; 13 out of 16 ain’t bad :)






08/23/09  12:57am

 #2062175


LunaC
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   Message To: Xanthoman   In reference to Message Id: 2062116


 Xanthoman

Quote:

join cf so you can post the details of all keeping practices for a review by a large number of experienced keepers with a knowledge base larger than you will find on any of the other forums . cf is dedicated almost entirely to the care and keeping of chameleons and it is there you are likely to find the best answers (besides the herp vet)



Thank you for your opinion.

With all due respect, I do believe this particular forum is dedicated to the care and keeping of chameleons as well and it is not just there a person is likely to "find the best answers".

Your contributions are valuable; you give good, solid advice backed by your experience with raising Jackson’s. There are quite a few very experienced keepers here as well who are able to contribute good, solid advice as well.

I am (as are others here) a member of CF as well. To imply that some of the regulars here .. long-term knowledgeable keepers ... cannot offer sound, practical advice, and that someone must join another forum in order to get proper advice is somewhat insulting.

I don’t think it would be very tactful or fair to B. if you posted the same advice there, directing a member here to "find the best answers".

And likely there, as here, it might probably be a violation of the TOS (#2 here: No Advertising Websites, Forums, Chats, For Sale, Sales, Contests, Top Site Programs, or in Images.)





08/23/09  01:42am

 #2062814


ThePetCastle
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   Message To: LunaC   In reference to Message Id: 2062165


 Senegal chameleon looks sick/dying, need advice

She did not make it. We did all that we could do for her, but being in a rural area, herp vets are scarce, and the ones who will see reptiles don’t know anything about chameleons. Just the basic beardies and ball pythons mostly. If there are any good herp vets in this forum, there is a lack of them here on the mid pen of VA, your office in this area would certainly be appreciated.

As far as the care, they received the care that we recommended as far as environmental parameters. Unfortunately, I was informed wrongly that they were communal chameleons, I know now they are not. In fact, after looking into it, I have yet to find a communal species of chameleon. I was told this by someone who should have known. Needless to say, I am going to verify everything he says in the future. As far as the future care of the chameleons, they were actually owned by two people, now that one is gone, the other will most likely go home with the other owner and stay there, no more moving back and forth.

I would also like to point out that, while I agree with you, LunaC, that most pet stores do not properly care for the animals in their possesion, we set out with a different attitude. The pets in our store get the best care we can provide. They are all quarantined and put on hold when they first come in so that we can evaluate and verify their health. We buy as many as we can from local/small breeders, not mass producers, and we are always looking for breeders that specialize in species that are commonly wild-caught so that we can get away from WC animals. Many of our animals have been vet checked and have been treated for worms. This means we have to charge a bit more, but all of our pets are guaranteed. And, to be perfectly honest, a cheap pet is less likely to get an owner that will provide the neccesary care for survival and happiness.

Please don’t take this to be snippy or defensive, but, I don’t like being lumped in with those "other" pet stores. In fact, it was one of those "other" pet stores that made my wife and I decide to open a good, reputable pet store.

I apolize if I have offended for getting a bit off topic. Thank you all for your advice and help, it has been invaluable in my education and learning of reptiles.
08/24/09  11:40am

 #2062959


LunaC
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   Message To: ThePetCastle   In reference to Message Id: 2062814


 Senegal chameleon looks sick/dying, need advice

Quote:

And, to be perfectly honest, a cheap pet is less likely to get an owner that will provide the neccesary care for survival and happiness.


Absolutely.

Quote:

Please don’t take this to be snippy or defensive, but, I don’t like being lumped in with those "other" pet stores



I don’t take it as snippy or defensive in the least. In fact, I even PM’d you immediately after my first post, explaining and hoping you would NOT be offended because I was NOT "lumping" you, did I not?

Quote:

In fact, it was one of those "other" pet stores that made my wife and I decide to open a good, reputable pet store.


Cool. Then you understood where I was coming from. Then you should not have been offended by my statement. The truth is most generic pet stores DO NOT know how to properly care for chameleons and I will stand by my statement. I never intimated YOU were one of "those" pet stores.

That said, by your own admission, you took incorrect advice from someone about Senegals being communal instead of simply researching Senegals or chameleon care in general.
I’m not certain you passed that information on to the owners of the Senegals, but as a pet store owner, you thought it was acceptable. Obviously it was not.

Quote:

Needless to say, I am going to verify everything he says in the future


Good idea.


(There is a species of communal chameleon, by the way)

’Nuff said. Again, very sorry to hear about the little female. All the best to you and your wife in your endeavors. I’m sure your Pet Castle will thrive!



08/24/09  06:22pm

 #2063161


Jonas77
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   Message To: LunaC   In reference to Message Id: 2062959


 Senegal chameleon looks sick/dying, need advice

"Communal chameleons" would have to be considered a very relative term. If you have a thousand square meters to spare you could probably house even as aggressive species as calyptratus "together" in a pair...

There are advanced keepers that can keep some jacksonii, hoehnelii and other species together, but this takes a lot of experience and you need to have kept these species alone for years to have a behavioral reference to fall back on before you try to keep them together.

Then there are those species that is fine, mostly even for beginners. Some of the stump-tail species like Rieppeleon brevicaudatus, can usually be kept in groups larger than a pair. They just dont seem to care too much and seems to be very easy to please as they usually spit out eggs that hatch, with hatchlings that pop up without any need for special incubation.
These species have their downsides in some aspects, many people find them dull looking and boring, it certainly takes a special interest to keep them. Ive found that the "type" to keep them often are the same "type" that keep poison arrow frogs; more focus on the terrarium as a whole with plants and other interests baked into the chameleon interest.
08/25/09  03:42am

 #2063162


Jonas77
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   Message To: Jonas77   In reference to Message Id: 2063161


 Senegal chameleon looks sick/dying, need advice

EDIT:

Quote:

There are advanced keepers that can keep some jacksonii, hoehnelii and other species together,



I dont mean keeping the different species together, but rather groups of the same species.



08/25/09  03:44am

 #2063388


LunaC
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   Message To: Jonas77   In reference to Message Id: 2063161


 Communal

Totally agreed, Jonas. I was referring to the Pygmys, not any other montane or tropical species when I referred to "communal".



08/25/09  04:54pm

 #2063415


ThePetCastle
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   Message To: LunaC   In reference to Message Id: 2062959


 Senegal chameleon looks sick/dying, need advice

LunaC, sorry, did not get the PM until just now. Should have seen it earlier, oops. No offense taken, or meant.
08/25/09  06:22pm

 #2063463


LunaC
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   Message To: ThePetCastle   In reference to Message Id: 2063415


 Senegal chameleon looks sick/dying, need advice

No problem :)

Take care. Hope to see you and/or your wife on the forums.
08/25/09  08:42pm

 #2064050


Xanthoman
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   Message To: LunaC   In reference to Message Id: 2062175


 Xanthoman

it was not meant as a slight to this forum or those who post on it, i will be the first to admit i have seen some excellent and knowledgeable advice posted on "the chameleon section " of this forum , however,to be honest, the vast majoriy of that advice has come from you, julirs, or jonas , and this forum is only a small corner of a much larger forum that is not dedicated to chameleons , my only point was that anyone who is in need of serious cham help or seeking to extend their cham knowledge is best served by not limiting themselves to any one person, one website, or one forum. if you have a problem with my post you are free to report it , if the moderator has a problem with it, he is free to delete it , which might have been a good thing as it might have helped avoid some of the hostility, i can only post according to my opinion and i am sorry it was recieved so defensively



08/27/09  05:53am

 #2064069


LunaC
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   Message To: Xanthoman   In reference to Message Id: 2064050


 Xanthoman

Quote:

if you have a problem with my post you are free to report it , if the moderator has a problem with it, he is free to delete it , which might have been a good thing as it might have helped avoid some of the hostility, i can only post according to my opinion and i am sorry it was recieved so defensively



Your post wasn’t reported; I may be outspoken, but I’m not that petty. And I agree with some of your logic.

If you felt I was being "hostile" by stating my opinion (just like you stated yours), then I too am sorry. My post was based more on fact and common sense, certainly not hostility! I feel no hostility toward anyone here or elsewhere.

I did, in fact, recognize your contributions - as I said, you do provide good solid information backed by your experience. Any new keeper will benefit from your knowledge. That’s a fact.

And of course, anyone/everyone is free to join any forum they so choose. They aren’t that difficult to find ... you know, world wide web and all. Like i said, I belong to others as well, some better than others. That’s a fact.

My primary point was that #1) your post was in violation of the TOS and #2) Brad most likely would not have appreciated you referring his members/readers elsewhere because (and using your own words) "it is there you are likely to find the best answers (besides the herp vet)".
#1 is a fact. #2 is common sense ... and just decent etiquette.

That’s all ... nothing more, nothing less. No "hostility", nothing personal.

Nuff said.



08/27/09  08:01am

 #2064076


Jonas77
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   Message To: LunaC   In reference to Message Id: 2064069


 Xanthoman

I actually looked CF up and became a member. We’ll see if I’ll raise some hell over there too...
08/27/09  08:28am

 #2064177


Xanthoman
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   Message To: Jonas77   In reference to Message Id: 2064076


 Xanthoman

i was actualy suprised to learn that jonas was not already a cf member, i could have swore i had seen posts by him there, but i guess that was my imagination working , i am a member to so many forums it is hard to keep track and i am constantly getting emails and notifications from forums i didnt even remember joining . in reference to the other post, reference was only made to cf because it sounded as though the person needed urgent help and no one else had yet to respond, and other than just basic cham (or veiled ) knowledge i admittedly have very little knowledge out side of my fort’e (jacksons) and had no advice to offer, and i felt it might be better to seek advice elsewhere rather than just wait hoping that some body else would chime in, in time, also i got the impression that the original poster was not aware of cf, and lets face it although every forum has its strengths and weaknesses (including this forum and cf) the largest cham knowledge/member base is at cf and anyone seeking in depth cham knowledge, or in need of urgent cham care, is well advised to at least check it out, regardless of which forum(s) they prefer, that doesnt mean this isnt a good or viable forum and my apologies to anyone who took it that way



08/27/09  01:13pm

 #2064438


AttackOfTheBreadiez
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   Message To: ThePetCastle   In reference to Message Id: 2062052


 Senegal chameleon looks sick/dying, need advice

water water water! but most likely he will pass away im done with tryin to keep chameleons ive had 5 or 6 within the past yr and they just broke my heart to see them dye.. and when they die its just a random thing they turn yellow and black and ther gone..
08/27/09  10:19pm

 #2065437


Xanthoman
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   Message To: AttackOfTheBreadiez   In reference to Message Id: 2064438


 Senegal chameleon looks sick/dying, need advice

when they die ,its NOT a random thing, and is usually attributed to their lack of proper care, dedication or knowledge by their keepers , it could sometimes be blamed on the condition of the animal when it was recieved , (ie wc, parasites , previously improper care etc ) however that could also be attributed to keeper knowledge/exp as informed keepers are aware of these problems and know to aviod them in the first place. if you have had 5 or 6 die within the last year then that demonstrates a considerable lack of care and dedication by the the keeper , any one who has one chameleon die should do everything possible, to get a handle on why that happened (rather than just blaming it on chameleons ) BEFORE they get another one . chameleons are not like caring for snakes or bearded dragons ,they require a much higher level of care and failure to acknowledge or accept that will almost certainly lead to their demise and any one with basic cham keeping knowledge should be able to recognize that



08/30/09  12:56pm

 #2065439


Xanthoman
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   Message To: Xanthoman   In reference to Message Id: 2065437


 Senegal chameleon looks sick/dying, need advice

ps chameleons are not disposable and trail and error is not an acceptable way to learn , i am glad to see that "attackofthebreadiez" is back to keeping just breaded dragons



08/30/09  01:03pm

 #2065470


Xanthoman
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   Message To: Xanthoman   In reference to Message Id: 2065439


 Senegal chameleon looks sick/dying, need advice

actually meant trial and error not trail and error



08/30/09  02:36pm


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