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 #1768170


GeckoGuy777
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 Captivity vs. Wild

I know many people will disagree with me here, but I really do not see what is so bad about captivity. If the animals are in good hands and are given the appropriate stimulation and space, is it that bad? I mean, you always hear about how captivity is never any good, but domestication has to start somewhere. Plus, the animals don’t have to face competition, drought, famine, predators, poachers, etc. It seems like the perfect ideal to me. Im not saying everyone should be allowed to have a Siberian Tiger, but I dont get WHY captivity is so bad if they get the right care. If people always thought like that, we wouldn’t have any of our dogs or cats or horses or any pet. It seems like a lot of people forget that dogs originated from WILD wolves, and look how well they’ve adapted. Im not trying to spark a debate, but can someone come up with reasons for why captivity is bad other than the larger animals being dangerous? Im not going to go out and buy a puma, but I’d love to work with wildlife and maybe start a sanctuary when Im older.


Danny
06/20/08  11:31pm

 #1768193


Dragongirl6
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   Message To: GeckoGuy777   In reference to Message Id: 1768170


 Captivity vs. Wild

Quote:

If the animals are in good hands and are given the appropriate stimulation and space, is it that bad?


The biggest problem is generally not the "idea" of captivity so much as it is the fact that most captive animals do NOT end up in the right hands. We have enough problems dealing with neglectful dog owners, what are we going to do if tigers become legal? Where will neglected chimpanzees go?

The fact is that even if you give a large, wild animal acres of land and good food, etc. they will still NEVER have as much land as they would in the wild and we still do not know enough about many of them to provide them with the stimulation, diet, exercise, and lifestyle that they need. Many people end up buying bob cats and other wild animals (that are small!) that still cause huge problems and simply aren’t meant to be pets.

Yes, domestication needs to start somewhere, but why do we feel the need to domesticate more animals when millions of the ones we already have suffer and die every year?
06/20/08  11:52pm

 #1769455


GeckoGuy777
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   Message To: Dragongirl6   In reference to Message Id: 1768193


 Captivity vs. Wild

Thats true... I was just wondering about it, and thanks for giving an educated answer! It seems like captivity is going to be the only way to save endangered species, giving that I doubt people are going to give up entire countries to be a wildlife park any time soon. Not really sure what else there is to say on the topic. Creatures as a whole need more room than we have on Earth. I wonder how people or nature is going to handle that...



Danny
06/22/08  11:33am

 #1769489


Dragongirl6
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   Message To: GeckoGuy777   In reference to Message Id: 1769455


 Captivity vs. Wild

You’re right that captivity is helpful for saving endangered species and rescuing animals, however the vast majority of zoos and similar places are not participating in breeding programs and are not willing to do the extra work of rehabilitation, setting up sanctuaries/reserves, returning captive bred animals to the wild, etc. that are necessary for these animals’ survival in the wild. They won’t do the earth any good or contribute to the food chain/balance of life if they are in fences and cages. Zoos are here so people can see them. And if the zoo is good, then great, people should be more educated about these animals, but zoos don’t really do everything they could be doing, and the vast majority of them all over the world are actually quite cruel. We visited some zoos in Vietnam/Cambodia that just made me sick.

I thought you were more talking about individuals having pet tigers than about zoos, but you make a great point.
06/22/08  11:56am

 #1769621


GeckoGuy777
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   Message To: Dragongirl6   In reference to Message Id: 1769489


 Captivity vs. Wild

I was talking about zoos and individuals in the original post. Its a shame that a decent amount of zoos are more interested in attracting people and making money than doing any good for the animal species. I never really understood why sanctuaries don’t run more like zoos and have people pay to see and learn about the animals. Those are the kind of programs we need at this point. Normally I’d be able to think for a little bit and offer a solution but it seems like there just isn’t enough room for everyone on this Earth. Every solution results in one side suffering... we definately need more people willing to help the cause... I’d really like to run a sanctuary or rescue someday. The only thing that doesnt work out with that is that the human side of me also wants to have a decent amount of money... lol... thanks for the interesting conversation!



Danny
06/22/08  02:29pm

 #1770009


Senshokukiba
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   Message To: GeckoGuy777   In reference to Message Id: 1769621


 Captivity vs. Wild

Contrary to popular belief, there are a lot of responcible exotic animal owners. Not all of them are cold hearted individuals who mistreat their animals all of the time.

Not all zoos simply own animals to attract quests. Some actually particapate in supporting conservation and such. Most zoos try to get involved so they’re better known.

Owning exotic animals will never become legal. This is because people struggle too much with animals that are actually domesticated.

It is possible for species to coexist, just not perfectly.

It’s not that there isn’t enough room for us on Earth. It’s the fact that we can’t live together as one community without overusing our resources.









06/22/08  08:38pm

 #1770333


Dragongirl6
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   Message To: Senshokukiba   In reference to Message Id: 1770009


 Captivity vs. Wild

When I was talking about zoos, I was talking more about zoos worldwide than those in the US (though there are plenty of sub par zoos here, too). I have visited zoos in...11 countries and have seen some pretty sad things.

I have battled in my head over the idea of people paying to see animals in a sanctuary or rescue with very exotic animals (not like, a dog/cat sanctuary). At the center I worked in, they only had rescue animals and had a chimpanzee breeding program, worked with other sanctuaries and local villages, took in exotic "pets", etc. and also were open 6 days a week for people to pay to see the animals. It is a great way for the center to make money and is incredibly valuable for the people to be able to see these animals in a habitat rather than a house as pets, or being tortured for witchcraft, etc.

However, I also noticed the animals were rather disturbed and frightened by the people at some times. Groups of children would scream at them to wake them up, despite signs posted everywhere, etc. and I even witnessed a group of young men throwing rocks at a group of otters (needless to say, I gave them a good talking to). Anyway, it can be very disruptive to an animal’s life to have strange people so close to them all day, and they don’t really have the resources to build enclosures with a lot of "buffer" space between the animals and the people.

I never said there weren’t responsible exotic animal owners. However, exotic animals are just very simply much harder to deal with and care for than domestic animals, so people who get them without doing a lot of research are more likely to end up not taking excellent care of them.
06/23/08  03:51am

 #1843274


Pyrofyr
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   Message To: GeckoGuy777   In reference to Message Id: 1768170


 Captivity vs. Wild

I’m highly in favor of captivity, but not EVERYONE should be allowed to have these animals, since obviously there are many people who can barely take care of children or themselves for that matter.

Captivity done correctly offers so many advantages over wild it is not funny.

The only thing I don’t truly understand is why people dare make the comparison. Most animals in captivity have been domesticated and would never last in the wild in the first place, it’s either a hobbyist/pet owner caring for them, or being cramped up in a barely livable area with other animals for the rest of their lives. Honestly, which is better? Keep in mind that if introduced to the wild, chances are they will die soon, and not get far.
08/26/08  05:30pm

 #1843594


Ledroc567
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   Message To: Pyrofyr   In reference to Message Id: 1843274


 Captivity vs. Wild

There is a saying that says "a bird in the bush is better then a bird in the hand" unless that hand is in a 1 square acker aviary and the bird is with its flock and there are no pretadors.

that is my perspected
08/26/08  09:21pm

 #1843715


Pyrofyr
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   Message To: Ledroc567   In reference to Message Id: 1843594


 Captivity vs. Wild

Well, you see the problem with that and every animal now is very simple, for every new breed that can be and is domesticated, you have breeders, tons of them, wanting to get in on the money, because it’s rare, people will make tons of money for early domestication of these animals, and call sell exotics for upwards of 1k if rare enough.

Now, obviously most of these people don’t own aviarys, and these people end up in homes, so the best pets for hobbyists are ones that need large spaces BUT can coexist with us without a large problem (No big cats, kangaroos, etc). I support Zoos, but the largest problem is that animals are always seperated into nearly unlivable quarters instead of putting animals that CAN coexist together (Few zoos do this, but the ones that do are awesome! :O) which means more roaming space for them, and more socialization. Even for a hobbyist or zoo alike however, offering an animal their ’realistic’ amount of space will almost never work.

To make matters infinitely worse however, the animals that would profit from being ’over-breeded’ even in captivity such as endangered or vulnerable species are near-impossible to raise, whereas species that are overflowing in animal shelters are still bred by so many people, that it’ll continue to grow.

I could propose the obvious (extremely so) way to fix this, which would be to disallow breeding if the animal shelters nearby exceed nominal amounts (by county even...), but that would obviously never be proposed as "OMG PEOPLE LOSE JOBZ!".
08/26/08  11:23pm

 #1845097


Skullkeeper
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   Message To: GeckoGuy777   In reference to Message Id: 1768170


 Captivity vs. Wild

There are also many species of animals that do not thrive in captivity no matter how much care is taken in their habitat . Some will not mate either .When it comes to a dangerous large predator like a tiger, lion, bear etc. you are also putting the public in danger .Most people that end up with such animals buy then as babies and have no idea what they are getting into. Later they can not properly house or care for them. even if they can provide exceptional care and veterinary care there is always a chance the animal could escape .I would suggest getting into research , photography or protecting endangered species rather than owning one your self . You would have to be pretty well off to be able to afford a large cat .
08/28/08  02:04pm

 #1845099


Skullkeeper
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   Message To: Pyrofyr   In reference to Message Id: 1843274


 Captivity vs. Wild

Which would be better

You being confined to a sterile hospital room , having great medical care ,with great food, water ,TV etc or you having to be on your own, make your own living, be exposed to other people that might give you a virus , harm you etc ? I know that’s a silly comparison .Captivity may have some advantages but it also has just as many disadvantages .When you think about being in a small cage as compared to being free well I would take freedom over captivity any day .Even a large cage to you would be extremely small when you think of the land that a Lion would have in the wild .Your large cats are programed gentically to hunt . They can not do that in captivity .I think its cruel no matter how nice of cage to cage a wild animal.
08/28/08  02:14pm

 #1846237


Senshokukiba
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   Message To: Skullkeeper   In reference to Message Id: 1845099


 Captivity vs. Wild

Animals in zoos and such are given a lot of mental stimulation. Animals are supplied with toys, human interaction, pools, climbing platoforms, food, and many other differant objects in order to keep them happy.

Exotic animals are usually housed in enclosures that have live plants. I’ve never heard of an exotic animal being housed in a hospital setting, Skullkeeper. Exotic animals are usually given a good amount of space to live in. There are regulations that determine how big or how small an exhibit for a certian animal can be.

There actually aren’t that many exotic animal attacks each year. That’s because their are laws that govern how short fences can be and what they can be made out of.

Contrary to popular belief, obtaining an exotic animal isn’t easy. You can’t just go to a store and purchase a Bengal Tiger or a Grizzly Bear. It’s much more difficult than that.

It’s true that exotic animals are some times abused by their owners. This is also true when it comes to domesticated animals as well though. Making owning exotic animals illegal is ridiculous. It’s punishing those who take good care of their exotics.
Should we ban people from owning domesticated animals as well? Domesticated animals are often abused. Plus, domesticated animals attack a lot more humans than exotic ones do.

There’s nothing wrong with having an exotic animals such as a Caracal living in captivity. Animals in captivity aren’t like humans. They don’t realize that others of their species live in the wild. They don’t day dream about living in the wild. They don’t get depressed because they’re not out in the woods or jungle with their cousins and uncles.

We humans make every thing seem worse simply because we don’t realize that animals like bears, wolves, and tigers aren’t like people.
08/29/08  03:51pm

 #1846299


Saucier
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   Message To: Senshokukiba   In reference to Message Id: 1846237


 Captivity vs. Wild

Skullkeeper was trying to make a point by saying what would you rather be in the free world or trapped in a hospital room.
08/29/08  04:58pm

 #1847133


Pyrofyr
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   Message To: Skullkeeper   In reference to Message Id: 1845099


 Captivity vs. Wild

I guess you didn’t understand, so I will reiterate myself. If I placed my black lab outside in the wild, she’d most likely die within days, if not weeks.

Your problem is that you’re not old enough (I’ll guess, due to your thinking) to be able to properly think in abstract, and therefore you are not understanding that for these animals that won’t last in the wild because they are not knowledgeable in caring for themselves, and therefore they won’t live long at all. Also, who says that you can’t teach these animals to hunt? And if they’re so ’genetically programmed’ why is it that one raised by humans will never be as vicious as one that’s raised by the pack? I suggest you come back and post on THESE matters in specific when you learn of nurture vs nature, and more on animal psychology.
08/30/08  03:50pm

 #1850044


Stina
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   Message To: Pyrofyr   In reference to Message Id: 1847133


 Captivity vs. Wild

I think it depends on the animal. I don’t believe any primate should be kept at a zoo or as a pet ever with the exception of animals that are being rehabilitated or in a breeding program. Same with any animal from the dolphin or whale family and most birds. On the other hand, smaller less intelligent animals (I’m only using the word intelligent for lack of a better word) such as snakes, skunks, ferrets etc that were BORN in captivity are OK as long as they have proper care and handling to make the animal as happy and comfortable as possible. I don’t think any animal born in the wild should be kept as a pet EVER. If they are in the worst case scenario such as an injury preventing it from being returned to the wild, then they need to be kept in as natural setting as possible, not in some tiny cage to be stared at by humans all day long.
I have pets, I’m not against it but my home is designed for their comfort, not mine. My animals are nearly all rescues and can not be released into the wild for 1 reason or another and NONE of them were born wild.



09/02/08  10:39pm


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