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 #1709400


Namcap
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 Pacman Tank.

Okay, so recently, i became overly obsessed with pacmans, and rushed straight into buying four. (Housed in pairs of equal sized, with a steady diet, and more than enough room.) At the time, i had no clue about these adorable quarter sized frogs. I had seen many peoples displays of simple, dirt then a dish and some moss. I copied, but after my favorite pacman died of eating a pebble, i immediately switched out substrates. And went to river rocks, BIG river rocks, that an adult can’t manage to swallow. Now i was horribly upset with the loss of my albino, but i did replace him/her. For the hefty sum of $45 for a fantasy. Well, i figured something that cost that much should look good in it’s home. So I did a cage make-over. And i am so glad I did. It turned out, great, but i have been scouring these forums, and the straight, yet guiding advice had lead me, so I wanted everyone here, or whoever reads, to tell em if anything is wrong with my Fantasy/Oranate’s Tank. The Green/Albino is a duplicate of this one, just displayed backwards.(My Bad.) I used a lot of suggested things, Eco-Earth, Spaghum Moss, Plants, Hiding Spots, Light, and a Cool Area. Even though it will be a little more of a hassle to clean, it was a lot cheaper, than even my simple Pebble, Dirt, Moss, Bowl, Fake Plant setup.


Link <-- Bigger View

The Layers in the middle are little river rocks, covered by fine mesh so my frogs don’t ingest any, if that’s an issue. And the water is hooked to a filter beneath the log, so the water will stay clean, and the plants are real, and suck up a lot from the dirt, so i end replacing about a cup of spring water every other day. It is misted once in the morning, and once when i get home from school. The light is on from 8:00 in the morning, to 9:00 at night, sometimes a little later. The light is a 50 Watt hooks to a regular desk light, so it gets warm, not hot. There is also a fluorescent light for the plants but I took it down for the detail shots. If you see anything wrong with ,y set up, please tell me so i can fix it, and no more of my pets will die. Even though i only had Dart (Deceased Albino) for a week or so, he is dearly missed.

Thanks,
Namcap



04/19/08  07:56pm

 #1709485


Gretchenellie
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   Message To: Namcap   In reference to Message Id: 1709400


 Pacman Tank.

i have one main concern:

you are housing them together in pairs...... WHY????

they are cannible’s (sp?) . if given the chance, they will eat another one of their own kind ( along with anything else).

i am also concerned that you are using moss, which, if ingested even in small amount can be deadly. they are lunger’s when it comes to food, and wont hesitate to swallow moss, pebbles or other substrate items..

are you hand feeding them?

you can house them together, if you place a divider in between. and the setup would need to be at least 20 gallons for two.



04/19/08  08:59pm

 #1709510


Namcap
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   Message To: Gretchenellie   In reference to Message Id: 1709485


 Pacman Tank.

They are a little bigger than a quarter. I was talking to some guys who where selling HUGE Pacman frogs, and little ones. This was again, one of my concerns as well, would my frogs eat each other. I asked him this specifically, with my frogs in hand, will they devour each other. And there answer was yes. Immediately i was making plan to go buy some large, cheap critter keepers. But the guy said, once they start outgrowning each other. He looked at my frogs, and said to place the two smaller ones together, and the two medium sized ones together, but once one outgrows another, separate. His only concern about keeping these tiny baby pacmans together, was regulating there diet. I take each frog out, place it in a small critter keeper, and feed them 3 crickets and 2 superworms every other day. For two weeks they have been fine, occasionally one will hop over the other and then burrow down.

Also i have read up, and sphagnum moss, that is finally shredded is perfectly digestible, mine is finally shredded, natural, and untreated, also, i do NOT feed them in there tank, they are fed in separate containers, alone, no other frog. So moss ingestion is not an issue with them, the worst one of them has eaten is a pebble, and my finger.

No i do not hand feed my frogs. I count out the crickets, dust them, and put them in with the frog, in it individual keeper. If they do not eat all the crickets i dust a single super worm and set it in, remove the left over cricket after a duration of about 20 min. They also receive a guppy/feeder fish once a week.

And an adult frog can be kept in a ten gallon, this is a 5-8 inch frog in a tank a little less than two feet. They don’t move enough to need ten gallons a frog, when they are an inch across.

To ease the issue, once they get around 3-4 inches. they are being moved to a 65 Gallon long, with a divider. If they are all difference sizes they will be split up. If two match up, they will be kept in a pair.
04/19/08  09:15pm

 #1709844


Zeek Butcher
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   Message To: Namcap   In reference to Message Id: 1709510


 Pacman Tank.

My only concern with your tank is that it is slope alot,pacmans prefer a flat tank,just easier on them really also you said you have 4 but they are in pairs,so why are you only showing one tank,also any pics of the frogs,we love pics haha,most people with pacmans dont really plant their tanks because the pacman will really tear it up,my pacman tanks are flat like the substrate is all level.
04/20/08  07:58am

 #1710795


JackAsp
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   Message To: Zeek Butcher   In reference to Message Id: 1709844


 Pacman Tank.

If they’ll bite your finger accidentally, they’ll bite each other’s. Often they lose feet that way, and the story always starts with "But I know keeping them together is harmless, they’ve never bitten each other before!" I mean, if there was some pro and con involved for the frogs, I could see risking it, but there’s no advantage for them. Are you hoping they’ll breed, at that age and size, in a terrestrial setup? If you have money for fancy terrarium props, you have money for a few plastic storage tubs. The frogs aren’t playing with each other, and they will not be lonely. For group housing, I would suggest firebellies, not horned frogs.
04/20/08  10:52pm

 #1711291


Mr.Pacman
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   Message To: JackAsp   In reference to Message Id: 1710795


 Pacman Tank.

Some quick advice is never I will repeat never house them to gether they can and will eat each other
04/21/08  02:39pm

 #1711937


Namcap
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   Message To: Mr.Pacman   In reference to Message Id: 1711291


 Pacman Tank.

Not hoping they’ll breed, there all females, not possible for them. Also in a natural Horned Frog habitat, they are not exposed to completely flat ground, i.e. roots, rocks, etc. especially not towards water, unless a puddle. Also going on a month, these frogs together have done nothing but burrow down, occasionally scoot over and burrow down again, if they even see the other frog the most they do is secure there burrow by digging deeper. With enough room these frogs have been doing fine, and until they grow a little more, or sprout giant fangs. (this does not include there tiny bony teeth). They’ll stay in an natural as possible, for a ten gallon tank , environment. Also, i am not saying keeping them together is harmless, by all means I understand the danger. But in pairs, these frogs have done fine, ever been to a zoo, 2-4 pacman frogs 4 lbs and above are chillin’ in a little glass tank, I already have a plastic sweater container set up for once they decide to get mean, but right now, there bright, and happy, therefore the issue will surely be controversial, but from a breeder’s (not me, the man i bought mine from) point of view, keeping two together is okay, as long as they have enough food.
04/21/08  10:58pm

 #1712150


JackAsp
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   Message To: Namcap   In reference to Message Id: 1711937


 Pacman Tank.

One breeder. The others will tell you quite differently.
You’re going to wait until after they get mean ( while playig technicality games about heir fangs) before you seperate them? What’s the plan then? Put the injured one through a time machine? How’d that work for the one you thought pebbles were a harmless idea for?
This has nothing to do with "natural." In nature they kill each other. This is you admitting there’s risk, but wanting to see how long you can get away with it. Name one advantage the frogs get from you accepting the increased danger.
You can’t even monitor how long a frog’s gone without defecating if there’s two in the same tank. Nor can you do individual parasite checks; if one tests positive, you’ll have no idea which one. Yay! Free medicinal side effects for everybody!
Everyone has listed at least one potential con. You have yet to list a single pro except "maybe I’ll get away with it for a while."
04/22/08  08:07am

 #1722840


Jo3Madness
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   Message To: JackAsp   In reference to Message Id: 1712150


 Pacman Tank.

Jack i dont know this guy but he seems to have it under control do not act sarcastic please my pacmans used to live in sets of 3’s i had 6 and put in two 40 gallon tanks without separaters and they lived fine they never fought they even shared their land they grew as if brothers and sisters... occasionaly there was a squarrel between food but they dont get violent towards eachother unless one is in the way of eating or in its territory for this reason mine separated themselves without a problem and mine were 3’s and 3’s due to size difference, they worked together in ripping apart super worms and everything please dont be sarcastic he has it under control... you may not know as well as i do but ive had pacman frogs for over 9 years and i know how to handle them if they fight at a young age when they cant do MUCH harm to eachother then they need to be separated for life (the case of two of my frogs) and thats that. Frogs can be social when referred to as antisocial solitaries... AND i did not get lucky on any of them so please dont imply it. He ha given you a thorough plan that you did not even need to know.. its not animal cruelty its making animals live and share their enviroment. Stop crucifying him, he has it under control so calm down, and stop worrying and giving lip.
05/01/08  11:24pm

 #1723384


JackAsp
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   Message To: Jo3Madness   In reference to Message Id: 1722840


 Pacman Tank.

Right, ’cause you absolutely never hear a story that starts with "They always got along so well..."

Just so you know, frogs do not want to assist each other in tearing apart food. That’s them all fighting over the same item, and each settling for part of it because it’s all they can get. Belive me, if you feed them each without another frog trying to get it they will not be upset. Some species of crocodiles hunt in packs, but frogs are a completely different type of animal.

I’ll ask again: besides fighting over food, which they’re both happier and safer without having to do, what "advantage" for the frogs compensates for the risk? The owner gets a better display with no risk of harm to himself. The owner gets bragging rights without any risk of harm to himself. I understand that. What do the frogs get?



05/02/08  04:59pm

 #1723505


Jo3Madness
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   Message To: JackAsp   In reference to Message Id: 1723384


 Pacman Tank.

Buddy, jack your wrong due to the reason i feed my frogs fairly and evenly making sure each gets as much as the other... calm down and stop flaming... my frogs tear apart food but there is always 5-6 extra food *items* on the floor of the cage depending on what im feeding them and i even set super worms wax worms and other types of bugs even mice next to them to see if they want more and they dont so please dont insist u know better than i do when ive observed them eating... the truth is i do have bragging rights cause in my 9 years of history on these frogs ive had one frog fight that wasnt even harmful to one or the other... and thats why i separated them so please stop insisting that you know more than i do when i actually observe these frogs in their habitat for the first wekk to month to see how they are doing.
05/02/08  06:55pm

 #1724851


JackAsp
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   Message To: Jo3Madness   In reference to Message Id: 1723505


 Pacman Tank.

1. If they have to tear apart food, it’s too big. A torn-apart superworm is even less nutritious than a regular superworm. Even higher chiton-to-edible tissue ratio. Some frogs will not even get key organs, which means additional loss of nutrients.

2. If there’s extra food in the cage, and there are two frogs in the cage, then you’re feeding them together. That’s the main way accidents happen. If they don’t often want a little more, then you’re overfeeding them. If they’re kept singly, you don’ have to do that.

3. Congratulations on having bragging rights to having had only one frog fight. That’s fewer than.. well, people who have even more, I guess. Most owners are able to avoid them entirely, though, unlike you. Since frog skin is considerably more sensitive than human skin, and I’ve bled from horned frog bites, I’d say group housing carries a risk of harm, but I guess as long as it didn’t actually kill one and force you to go out and spend another $19.99 everything’s good,huh?

I love that even after you’ve seen that it can happen you still get mad when someone says they might bite each other. There is also no shortage whatsoever of photographic evidence of them maiming, killing, or even choking on each other.

4. You observe for a week or month? Most people would have to sleep or go to work way before then. What do you do, leave a note that days "don’t bite each other" or just hope you stay lucky?

5. If it’s not risky, you wouldn’t feel such a need to insist you take measures to prevent trouble. So don’t get all bent out of shape when other people want to know why you’re endorsing a risky technique when there is a much easier, safer option. If one does bite another on, you can’t even make it not have happened. All you can do is stop it from getting worse. The frog that got chomped is still feeling it, unless you have access to a time machine.

6. How do you even monitor individual health? If I ever have an animal that’s constipated or has a strange-looking stool I know which one it is. What’s your system?

7.What advantage do the frogs gain from this? A firebelly or clawed frog or Roccoco owner would have hit me with a better anecdote about social interaction than fighting over food by now. If they get something positive out if it, then maybe the pros balance out the cons. If they couldn’t care less, then why put them at risk? I’m not sure why I’m even asking this question again. If you were going to answer it, you probably would already.

8.Minimizing a risk, without gaining an advantage, is not the same thing as gaining an advantage. It not only has no inherent advantage over not having the risk in the first place, but it has the disadvantage of being unnecessarily complicated, and therefore More prone to error.

It sounds to me like you’re suggesting people simply take a longer route to reduce the same problems that everybody else takes a short route to eliminating entirely. If I were talking about all the hoops I have to jump through to keep my solitary frog from feeling lonely, and you were saying "Well, I just keep mine together and they play leapfrog all day" then the advantage would be yours unless I counteracted by explaining why I was afraid to keep them together in the first place.

"Filtered cigarette logic," basically. The best way way to avoid lung cancer is to not smoke, all the rest is just damage control. (I know, there’s also coal mining and whatnot, but it’s a loose analogy.)

9. You’re hardly the only person who’s kept them for a nine years. Hell, I even had a Cranwell’s longer than that, and unlike ornates they usually only live about seven. They do get better about not biting the wrong thing over the years, but they’re never one hundred per cent trustworthy if they’re hungry.

a. They’re not very smart, and

b. They don’t really care if they hurt someone. They just want food.

10. There are a few anurans that may display positive social interaction besides breeding. Firebellies, clawed frogs, and cane toads are often credited with it. I don’t know how much of that is actually true and how much is misinterpretations of territorial behavior or simply both liking the same cage areas at the same times of day, but I’m open to the idea. With horned frogs... expect a bit more skepticism. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.



05/04/08  01:27pm


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