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 #2575


Steveo
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 African Dwarf Frogs Death

I bought two african dwarf frogs the other day from the petshop. One frog died the next day and the second frog died today. I don’t understand why they died, but maybe someone can enlighten me if I describe my tank setup.

I have the Frogs in with my fish(parrots,severns,etc). My tank is a 72 gallon bow. I do put a teaspoon of salt per 10 gallons. Would that kill the frogs, or maybe the depth of the tank? Or did I just stress them out enough to kill them.

Can anyone help me?

Thanks,
Steveo



04/14/03  11:41am
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 #2576


Eyespy
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  Message To: Steveo   In reference to Message Id: 2575


 Re: African Dwarf Frogs Death

I’m so sorry for your loss. They do require freshwater, salt is really only useful if they are suffering from toxins and you want to flush out their system, then it’s a bath in salt water for no more than 20 minutes or so.

They don’t do all that well with fish, either. Frogs breathe through their skin as well as their nostrils and so they absorb a lot of ammonia when housed with fish. Even though they are tiny little frogs they need 2 or 3 gallons of fresh clean water per frog. They don’t go by the inch per gallon rule that tropical fish generally do.

However, even if you had the pair in a 5 + gallon tank by themselves with fresh water, ADFs often die soon after purchase. I’ve yet to see a pet store that houses them without overcrowding and so many of them are already sickly when you bring them home. Just the stress of a new tank is enough to kill them. I adore them and must have had at least 40 of them but most of them weren’t with me for anywhere near long enough. So many of them died within a week of purchase and I had a fair few that escaped. They are tricky, slippery little buggers that way! I did have one pair for nearly 3 years but as they can easily live for 5-7 that wasn’t anywhere near long enough for me.

I hope your loss didn’t sour you too much on those funny little froggies. They are adorable and so fun to watch. When you have a pair that like each other’s company they do the funniest little criss-cross dance all throughout their tank.



04/14/03  3:47pm
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 #2578


Firetoady
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  Message To: Steveo   In reference to Message Id: 2575


 Re: African Dwarf Frogs Death

Oh how sad I would have to agree with Eyespy, also it would seem to me that the tank depth might be a factor too....they are really little. Are you going to try again? Maybe get a tank just for them. I have AFC’s and they are just so fun to have.
firetoady



04/14/03  4:00pm
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 #4801


Rachel
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  Message To: Steveo   In reference to Message Id: 2575


 Re: African Dwarf Frogs Death

they steveo im rachel pollard im soo sorry about your two frogs they r soo cool i have a frog just like yours but his name is Gus well the salt that u put in the tank is really bad 4 your frogs u should get this water u can get from save-on or any store with bottle water there is a kind called disstilled and thats what i use 4 my frog just put that in instead of what u were putting in and they will do just fine it can also be the kind of fish u put in your tank some of the big fish will pick on them or even kill them need any more help my name is rachel and my e-mail is icplover911@aol.com



07/19/03  10:23pm
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 #4811


Eyespy
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  Message To: Rachel   In reference to Message Id: 4801


 Re: Re: African Dwarf Frogs Death

I actually don’t like distilled water, there are no minerals in it and frogs use the potassium, magnesium, calcium and other goodies they get from tap water quite well. I just add tap water conditioner to it so that the chlorine and chloramines are neutralized.



07/20/03  8:06am
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 #5040


Snuggle
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  Message To: Rachel   In reference to Message Id: 4801


 African Dwarf Frogs and fish

What fish can you place with African Dwarf Frogs that are easy to care for.
Please help me



07/30/03  8:00pm
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 #5047


Xta
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  Message To: Snuggle   In reference to Message Id: 5040


 Re: African Dwarf Frogs and fish

Well I know you can put guppies in there...but they will get eaten. They can last for awhile though and they breed like crazy. That’s what Firetoady has in her tank!



07/30/03  9:09pm
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 #5079


Eyespy
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  Message To: Xta   In reference to Message Id: 5047


 Re: Re: African Dwarf Frogs and fish

It’s best to have a surprisingly large tank if you’re going to mix fish with ADF’s as they absorb water through their skin as well as "drinking" it and therefore get a very heavy dose of the ammonia that is in fish wastes. It’s better for the frogs to keep them in a tank without fish unless you are fanatical about water changes and testing the water to keep the pH within a nice range.



07/31/03  12:02pm
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 #5429


Linda
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  Message To: Eyespy   In reference to Message Id: 2576


 Re: Re: African Dwarf Frogs Death

Hi, I’m LInda. I met my firt ADF about 3 months ago, took 2 babies to my office where I work in mental health. My patients loved them...very calming. Pretty soon I had 5 more staff set up with "froggie homes." Mine are still alive and well...but there have been 3 deaths with the other 10 frogs. Same kind of water, same food, same environment. So it doesn’t make sense as to why they die. Tap water with de-cholorinator. Bamboo stems in water. Not with fish of any kind.

Have any of you had good luck with frogs living a long time?
2 of the deaths occurred in one tank. The ADF named Leo, lived through both deaths. Can a baby be put in with him now...or might he pick on it? Thanks for any help here...my email is LJC298@aol.com if anyone has suggestions...or email me here. Thanks...Linda



08/09/03  1:02pm
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 #5447


Eyespy
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  Message To: Linda   In reference to Message Id: 5429


 Re: Re: Re: African Dwarf Frogs Death

These little frogs are very sensitive to toxins and really go through the wringer in the pet trade so it might not be anything that your staffers are doing. They are stuffed in little vacuum sealed bags and shipped from breeder to distributor to pet store, soaking in their own wastes plus any bacteria or fungi that might have been in the water with them.

I’ve had lots of frogs die on me very soon after I brought them home. In fact, it seems I either get to enjoy my frogs for a couple of years or else they die within a month. It all seems to depend on the individual frog and just how rough its journey has been.

Quarantining new frogs in a tank all alone for 2 months can help them to settle in without having to deal with competition, bullying or the waste products of other animals in their water. Usually if they make it through that, they will be fine but those first 2 months can be touch and go. It could also be that Leo is a carrier of a bacteria that his body has learned to deal with, but that sickens new arrivals. Again, quarantine is the way to go. When you are about to introduce the new frog(s) to Leo, add some water from his tank to the new frog’s. Add a little bit more every day for a week or two so that they slowly get used to Leo’s own particular brand of flora. We all of us carry bacteria in our digestive and respiratory systems and sometimes a slow introduction is best so that the new frog has time to build up antibodies.

I’ve had ADF’s that have passed their third "birthday" with me but unfortunately most of them died within a week or two of me gettin them. It’s just the nature of these poor guys to get sick after all they’ve been through.



08/09/03  10:41pm
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 #7536


KarenM
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  Message To: Eyespy   In reference to Message Id: 5447


 Re: Re: Re: African Dwarf Frogs Death

The aforementioned froggie, Leo, is mine! (Leopold, named after Leopoldville, Republic of Congo where some of these fellows come from long ago.) I’ve had him since May 3rd, but now I’m VERY worried about him. His companion of 2.5 months, Spot, died on 8/8. We got another, Charlie, on 8/13, and he’d been with Leo ever since (didn’t follow up on the quarantine notion). Charlie is bigger, but they seemed to get along. I was concerned a few days ago when I saw some ’snapping’ going on, seemingly in an effort to grab at food. I think Charlie nipped Leo on the side. Before the weekend I was concerned that they might be fighting (although I remain convinced that this was an accident, as I often saw them ’hang out’ together), or that Leo might not be getting enough food, so I separated the two of them on Friday. They’re here at work, so I couldn’t watch him over the weekend, but I haven’t seen Leo eat in the last 2 days. He seems very lethargic, and I am very worried that he is sick and is going to die. I’ve had him for 4 months, and the only "new" thing was the addition of Charlie, but that was over a month ago!
I feel so utterly helpless. I’m reading about this idea of flushing toxins from them... when would you do that? Should I try that?
I’ve always used the freeze dried bloodworms, with an occasional dash of a Beta bite. Do the bloodworms go bad? Should I try something else, or some frozen ones? He’s thrived on this same food the past 4 months, so I’m not sure what might have changed. Someone mentioned a vet. How on earth do you find a vet that knows something about these little guys?
I love my dear froggies, and can’t stand the thought of losing Leo...



09/16/03  4:54pm
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 #7537


Eyespy
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  Message To: KarenM   In reference to Message Id: 7536


 Re: Re: Re: African Dwarf Frogs Death

The salt bath is a way to draw toxins out of their body, salt outside the body forces water through their skin and the water also brings along toxins. Salt baths are for a short duration, followed by a soak in fresh clean water.

With all those water changes, it’s very important to get a pH test kit so that you can make sure all the water is in the right range. Frogs very easily go into shock if plunged into water that is too different from the pH they were just living in.

My bookmark on the right salt:water ratio was on my old computer with the dead hard drive. Let me do some searching and see if I can’t find that website again.



09/16/03  5:24pm
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 #7544


Eyespy
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  Message To: Eyespy   In reference to Message Id: 7537


 Re: Re: Re: African Dwarf Frogs Death

Well, I found the page, but it’s been changed and he’s removed specific references to different therapeutic salts and the ratios. But still, it’s a good read and I think if you read the bacterial diseases section you’ll have a clearer understanding of what probably happened to Leo:

Aquat. frog diseases



09/16/03  6:13pm
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 #7545


Eyespy
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  Message To: KarenM   In reference to Message Id: 7536


 Re: Re: Re: African Dwarf Frogs Death

Oh, I forgot to mention, ADFs don’t have tongues or teeth and so bite wounds are impossible, what you are seeing is probably an infectious skin lesion common to many different bacterial infections but can also sometimes be seen in fungal infections.



09/16/03  6:20pm
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 #7555


KarenM
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  Message To: Eyespy   In reference to Message Id: 7545


 Re: Re: Re: African Dwarf Frogs Death

so, since a fungal infection is different than a bacterial infection, do I do something different?
I’m sorry, I’m very upset about him, and feel very confused about what to do to help him. I cried for 2 days when Spot died last month....
His chest cavity is a little larger than usual. What’s that all about? I’ve read that they get constipated, and that warmer water helps...



09/16/03  7:24pm
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 #7588


Eyespy
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  Message To: KarenM   In reference to Message Id: 7555


 Re: Re: Re: African Dwarf Frogs Death

It’s more likely to be bloating from a buildup of toxins from an infection than constipation if it’s above the "waist". Really only a vet can isolate what kind of pathogen is causing the problem and so which med is the right one.



09/16/03  11:23pm
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 #7841


KarenM
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  Message To: Eyespy   In reference to Message Id: 7588


 Re: Re: Re: African Dwarf Frogs Death

Well, poor little Leo died today. He gave it a good fight though. I sought help from a reputable Aquarium Supply Store and they recommended the salt bath and some MelaFix. Did that today, but I guess Leo was just too sick for it to help.
One curious thing about both him, and the late Spot, is that both of them seemed rather slim through the abdomen and hip area--even thinner than their chest area, so I wonder if there was something congenital about them. Very skinny toothpick like legs too, if I compare them to Charlie, my remaining frog, whose build is more like a ’slender’ girl frog.
I want to thank you for your interest and help though.



09/18/03  5:23pm
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 #7851


Eyespy
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  Message To: KarenM   In reference to Message Id: 7841


 Re: Re: Re: African Dwarf Frogs Death

I’m very sorry for your loss. Swollen chests are pretty common in sick aquatic frogs, but it’s such a vague symptom it’s tough to pin down what is wrong. Basically what happens is the body stores fluids in and around the chest cavity to support the heart and lungs for as long as possible and try to wait out the illness. It could be anything from parasites to kidney failure that causes it.



09/18/03  6:30pm
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 #12531


Henners
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  Message To: Steveo   In reference to Message Id: 2575


 African Dwarf Frogs Death

I keep DAF’s with my tropical fish and I have identified one crucial problem. They get "bloat" making them look fat. They appear listless and in some cases you can see almost clear through their little bodies.

The problem is toxicity. They are not intended to live where the water is not naturally refreshed and the aquarium filter is not designed to remove the "nitrates" that accumulate in the tank. Fish themselves become sick eventually from the the same problem. The answer is to regulary change up to third of the water in the aquarium with water that has stood (from the faucet) for 48 hours and as a precaution, use "first start" setting-up fluid obtainable from the aquarist shop (or an equivalent) to ensure that chlorine and chloramine has been adequately removed. Any of these brands will be ok)

Set up a large heated container or a spare aquarium with water treated as above (ie Chlorine and chloramine free).

Take the sick frog (carefully - as they hop!) from its sick aquarium and transfer to a live bearing fish breeding trap in the newly set up heated container. The breeding trap should allow water to flow through or up into it (or an equivalent nursery that allows the aquarium water heated to 82oF + or - 3 degrees to flow up into it or through it)Then float the frog within the "trap" in a gallon milk bottle cap in that fresh aquarium ( rather like it might sit in a puddle on a lilly pad - or like its in a round boat. Allow the frog to settle in that condition for an hour or so. Later, take the frog in it’s bottle cap boat and float it in a small drinking glass 1/2 filled with aquarium water. Add up to 5 crystals of Mortons Rock salt (the one used for making ice cream and stocked at Smiths pharmacy)to the water in the glass, below the botlle cap boat leave the frog floating in the glass for about 10 minutes in it’s gallon bottle cap. Return the frog to the breed trap (or equivalent isolation container) in the spare aquarium and repat this process of a short salt water bath (over the sink counter or draining surface) the next day.

Frogs in this sick condition then have to shed their skin, as part of the the de-tox process.This unfortunately can be a tiresome process for the frog as it’s is trying recover from its toxicity, debilitating as that is, and then is forced by nature to go through the skin shedding process, but caught in time, the frog sheds it’s skin in fragments and is soon posing like Kermit again as only these cool guys can do. Note: Tiny Frogs might be better bathed in Salt for only 5 minutes but repeat this 3 times over 24 hours. The bathing process is not an exact science so it’s really a matter of persevering with the time needed. Allow the rock crystals to gradually dissolve while the frog bathes. Don’t go away and leave the frog sitiing in a puddle of salt water while you get on with other things. It’s far better to do this in short stints than one long treatment. Remember that de-toxifictation takes on a gradual process in the same way that the toxin itself gradually made the frog sick.

Important: Use a Nitrates testing kit and monitor the levels in the original offending aquaria and stabilize the original auquaria before returning the frog to it’s original environment. It may be that there are too many fish in that "tank". Give frogs more "clean" space than you would the fish. No more than 1 per 3 gallons is an idea after taking in account the number of inches of fish (1" of fish per gallon) already in the tank. If this is the problem you need to stir up all the gravel at the bottom of the tank making clouds of mud-like water then let your filter do it’s best with as many new filter cartridges as you need to get and it may take a few days to clear. You may need to transfer fish in that original tank to the new or temporary aquarium while that goes on filtering. While it filters, continue water changes with the process of using water that has stood for 2 days. Avoid a complete aquarium "out", clean up, as this leaves the tank void of all established micro-organisms needed to stabilize an aquarium’s natural environment. Do regular nitrate testing Hey, good luck - keep frogging.



11/05/03  1:38pm
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 #15345


KarenM
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  Message To: Henners   In reference to Message Id: 12531


 African Dwarf Frogs Death

Well, I’ve finally rebounded from the death of my first 2 frogs. Still have the third one, Charlie, and want to introduce another male into the tank. I put them together very briefly one day (after mixing their water, etc), and was freaked out when my older frog grabbed onto the new one with a death grip. Naturally, I’ve already lost two, so am very concerned that something bad might happen to my new one. I posted a question elsewhere, but no replies yet!!
So, can one frog hurt or kill another?? (African Dwarf Frogs). they’re both males, nearly the same size. Don’t know if they were fighting, or if Charlie was trying to mate with the new guy, but he held him so tight his little belly was bulging out!! Please reply with your experience with this!



11/24/03  5:02pm
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 #19438


Mitchell
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  Message To: Eyespy   In reference to Message Id: 5079


 Re: Re: African Dwarf Frogs and fish

i have had my ADF for 3 1/2 years and it is in a ten gallon tank with 1 betta replaced a year ago two black mollys and a sucker fish i only feed him frog pebbles when the fish are sleeping late at night the information i read about these frogs says that they dont eat fish flakes but mine does and is not very shy i think i have a tough little frog



12/16/03  11:57pm
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 #19475


KathleenAnn
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  Message To: Mitchell   In reference to Message Id: 19438


 Re: African Dwarf Frogs and fish

I had my ADF for 4 years, she died today. Not sure why, she appeared to be very happy and healthy. I kept her alone in a 5 gal tank. Now and then I had a small fish or two in there with her but it has been awhile. I would like to get two of them now. How do you tell males from females?



12/17/03  9:59am
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 #19490


KEC
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  Message To: KathleenAnn   In reference to Message Id: 19475


 Re: African Dwarf Frogs and fish

sorry about your froggie...I have two ADF’s, one male & one female, the females are MUCH bigger than the males, with a bigger abdomen to carry the eggs - which is my problem. My female just laid her eggs, and I don’t know what to do! I’ve heard that they’ll eat their eggs & I don’t have a breeder tank, but want to save the babies...any advice? What is the gestation period of ADF’s? Any advice would be very helpful...thanks!



12/17/03  2:00pm
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 #19760


Mitchell
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  Message To: KathleenAnn   In reference to Message Id: 19475


 Re: African Dwarf Frogs and fish

I have read that females are larger and males have a white mating spot under their armpit but one time i bought my little brother some adfs and the male was larger so i dont think you can go by that the fish store usually dosent have alot of info,hope you get a good pair if all else fails buay a couple and see who pairs off or gets pregnant



12/18/03  8:49pm
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 #22034


KEC
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  Message To: Mitchell   In reference to Message Id: 19760


 Re: African Dwarf Frogs and fish

Hi again, well I definitely have a male and female - I have eggs! I’ve also read that the male has a white spot under their armpit, but I have yet to see one on mine...I’ve also read in various places that the female has a little "tail"-like bump, and the males don’t - they have an "innie" where the female has an "outie"...this IS the case with mine. I haven’t received any response to my question about what to do about the eggs though - I guess no one knows...



12/31/03  2:55pm
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 #23912


Todley
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  Message To: KEC   In reference to Message Id: 22034


 Re: African Dwarf Frogs and fish

I’ve raised some tads from eggs and found them very educational & entertaining. You need to move eggs (which will hatch after about 24 hours) or tads into a separate tank hatch after about 24 hours or they will either be eaten or die from lack of foods. These are so very, very, tiny so ensure you don’t allow them out of water on any moves. Depending on how many tads you end up with, ensure you keep an air stone going for them. After the first couple of days they’ll have finished feeding on the egg sac and will need some real food. HBH Frog & Tadpole Bites all ground finely work well but you’ll need to watch your water parameters with much of it falling to the bottom and fouling the water parameters closely. These little things are all top feeders at this point. In a week or so it’s a good idea to have a couple or three hatcheries of bbs going as a source of live foods for them. They’ll hunt these all through the water and their little bellies will be full and orange. After a few weeks you can graduate to frozen Daphnia for a while until they’re ready for real foods like small pieces of bloodworms. Goodluck with your tads.


todley
flippersandfins.net



01/08/04  7:49pm
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 #25201


KEC
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  Message To: Todley   In reference to Message Id: 23912


 Re: African Dwarf Frogs and fish

Thanks Todley! You’re the first person to reply to me in this place! I really appreciate it! Although I’m not sure if I can use your advice or not...you see, my frogs are living on the edge...I have them here at work, no filter, no heater, nothing but a plastic tank and fake plants and they are absolutely thriving! I was hoping to get a few tadpoles, but haven’t really done anything to encourage it...I just happened to see one swimming around, and tossed it in another little plastic tank I had set aside for eggs. I just saw it yesterday 1/12/04, and the eggs were laid on 1/8 ??? I think... So, what’s it been eating? I broke up some baby dried shrimp, and it’s still alive so far, but I think I’ll look for some Tadpole Bites...
By the way - what are bbs? And what is frozen Daphnia?



01/13/04  2:54pm
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 #33523


Froggiechic¤
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  Message To: KEC   In reference to Message Id: 25201


 Re: African Dwarf Frogs and fish

this actually has nothing to do with this forum but... do female ADFs sing? and what is a easy way of sexing them?



02/08/04  10:22pm
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 #48542


Charmjustme
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  Message To: Froggiechic¤   In reference to Message Id: 33523


 Re: African Dwarf Frogs and fish

I got my first ADF for christmas, and just last week I got another one both these are in an eight gallon filtered tank. Both were very energetic but last night Happy (my first one) seemed to be lazy, he did a lot of floating around, today he seems almost lifeless, not my movement at all, he is shedding his skin, but he has done that before and didnt act this way. Once today he was laying on his back on the bottom of the tank, I almost freaked out, i turned him over and he was still moving, but not much, about 4 hours later the same thing happened, I took him out and put him in a tank of his own only a small one and he isnt moving much at all. and once again he was on his back, but i turned him over with the net and he moved some. now he is just laying there looks dead to me......somebody help me please...what could be wrong? does this mean he is dying?



03/18/04  4:54pm
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 #50213


Lpbabyamdf
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  Message To: Linda   In reference to Message Id: 5429


 Re: Re: African Dwarf Frogs Death

Hey, everybody!
My name’s Angela. My family has had ADFs since about 4 years ago. I’ve completely fallen in love with them! We’ve been through quite a few pairs (they’re more fun to watch in pairs). Even since the first two, they’ve been named Frickle and Freckle. Frickle is always the lighter one and Freckle is always the one with more "freckles". We’re already on Frickle the Fourth (who I renamed Mr. Frickle for fun). We got him a few weeks ago as a baby and put him in with the other ADF who is at least a year old now. He tends to eat way too much, so he’s pretty big. I just started noticing a few days ago that the baby is often floating around at the top instead of hiding in the plants or spazing out like all of the other frogs we’ve had. And today, as I was telling my mom about this, I went over to look at him and he was floating on his back. I became very upset (I really love these guys) and my mom got out a net to remove him from the tank. He immediatly started flailing around and we both laughed. When we put him back in the water though, he wouldnt stop twitching, and he was moving into weird positions like putting his arms behind his back and he keeps floating over towards the wall. I think he’s dying...he refuses to eat anything and he’s unbelievably skinny. We have him in a seperate tank now. This happened about an hour ago. I’m really worried and I have no idea what’s wrong. I’m nervous about putting him back in the normal tank because the older frog was picking on his knee, so it looks like he’s shedding. What can I do for him!? I feel horrible letting him die...and I don’t want to have to burry him like a lot of the other frogs...(the whole flush the fish thing doesnt seem right to me.) I dont know what could be wrong. We have rocks that would go in a tank at the bottom of the bowl, the plants in the bowl are fake and made of a silk like material for aquariums, and we use tap water in the bowls. He was in a tank with just another ADF and a ramshorn snail. We bought the snail and the baby adf on the same day to keep the bowl clean (and it has been a success). Does anybody have any ideas?
Thank you!!!!



03/22/04  3:56pm
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 #51985


Reptilover15
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  Message To: Lpbabyamdf   In reference to Message Id: 50213


 Re: Re: African Dwarf Frogs Death

sORRY FOR YOUR LOSS



03/27/04  11:32am
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 #52673


Kt
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  Message To: Reptilover15   In reference to Message Id: 51985


 Re: Re: African Dwarf Frogs Death

Hi, my name is Katie and recently my roomate bought 2 ADFs to put in a 10 gallon tank that already contains 3 angle fish and 2 guramies. I think that she has overcrowded our tank because everything is starting to get a film of algea over it, including the plants and ground. One of the ADFs seems to be getting the algea on him as well. The other one isn’t getting it though. Could it be that the ADF is shedding his skin, or should I have reason to worry?
thanks!



03/29/04  1:59pm
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 #127963


Verylittleg
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  Message To: Linda   In reference to Message Id: 5429


 Re: Re: African Dwarf Frogs Death

I was wondering, you said you place bamboo with the frogs? I was looking for a nice live plant to put with them, but I never heard of bamboo it doesn’t bother the frogs?

thanks



08/24/04  9:48pm
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