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Froggy&Gribbit View Profile |
Captured versus store bought
All store bought/breeder bought amphibians came originally from a wild caught animal. Some amphibians are still wild caught and sold to shops whether they are frogs, tadddies or eggs. (when you buy your frog you are just not the one who caught him or his daddy) Another issue I find with store bought is that the animals are kept in places they are not native to. I do not understand how taking animals from their natural environment and exporting them to foreign countries, where they are then bred and sold in artificial environments is acceptable. But capturing a native froglet/egg/taddie in your own area and raising it is unacceptable. Now I know there are alot of variables in this discussion. But in an area where the amphibian is abundant and correct permitting procedures are followed, and the needs of the animal are met, I don’t know why raising such an animal is wrong??!!  |
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| 06/21/06 04:11pm |
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Herp13 View Profile |
Message To: Froggy&Gribbit In reference to Message Id: 843369 Captured versus store bought
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| 06/21/06 04:30pm |
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Joshsnakeman View Profile |
Message To: Herp13 In reference to Message Id: 843399 Captured versus store bought
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| 06/21/06 05:09pm |
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Hoppy View Profile |
Message To: Froggy&Gribbit In reference to Message Id: 843369 Captured versus store bought
The difference is most that are bred today were exported years ago and no longer from the wild.. for instance the Whites tree frog....cannot be wild caught anymore as Australia does not legally export them ....that does not mean there arn’t illegal issues..neither does Indonesia. You will find sites that say wild caught whites....these are wild caught from New Zealand and Florida where they were released into the wild from the pet trade....I still would not buy them. The problem with taking from the wild is that if all did it .....where would the amphibians be...? Most states prohibit people taking native species into captivity. Do you think most check with the laws?....tha answer is no most do not know they are even thereor where to check. Or don’t care as they most likely won’t be caught. Do most that take from the wild know how to breed them?....the answer again is no. And the sad part is most of these native species cannot even breed in captivity which is why they are not in the pet trade to start with. If you want to take from the wild then the most humane way is by tads if it is legal..In some places even this is illegal. Soon this too will be restricted ( in some places they are protected now) as you will get piles of people taking all the tads and future generations will be lost. My position is this....If you take from the wild any tads some must be returned after morph so future generations will continue... But YOU know and I know most will die and be sold if survive.... Most countries do not allow export of any native species since the fiasco with pet trade release and other issues like the cane toad. Canada has strict regulations and so do many other countries now on these species...the lightest in probably the USA. Anyone who reads up on amphibians knows to that the amphibian world in on decline due to poaching, enviornmental factors, disease introduced by other means.. Right now there are sections of frogs being lost in the rain forest due to a new fungus found in Australia too....even some breeders are fighting it in their stock.... If you look a man’s history....we don’t take one we take and kill till there is none left...or they become protected almost exstinct...all it takes is someone to give the ok and make it acceptable like elephants and rhinos, tigers, many birds...parrots, crocs, Man will destroy all if legislation and laws are not followed....its human nature. On forum it is a few of us that try to make people aware of the laws and parisites they carry, the fact most will die from stress, there is no future as we know they won’t breed....its very hard. And then you have others that take anyway...and will continue to do so.... I and a few others can only try to educate people that taking from the wild is not the same as having captive bred. Not even in temperment, breeding possibilities...parisites...and benefit of the frog/toad. Ask yourself whether or not most that you have read from the wild on the forum here are for the benefit of the frog or toad and you will have your answer....Were they captured to enhance their life? To save the species? To breed? NO????? If you were suddenly put into a room for the rest of your days like jail would you be happy? But if you were raised in that room would you feel different? There has to be some of us that speak for those that have no voice. All they want is respect and to be free they ask nothing of mankind.... HOPPY |
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| 06/21/06 05:12pm |
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Froggy&Gribbit View Profile |
Message To: Hoppy In reference to Message Id: 843480
And I do agree with alot of your points. Legislation protects alot of animals and most law abiding citizens follow these laws. But there are always those irrisponsible people who will disregard laws. And like you said if we can educate than that is great!!! I do not think there are many people who have "Pet" frogs for the benefit of the species, usually it is for personal pleasure. I do not agree with the fact that caging a wild animal is worse than keeping one that was raised in a box and therefore knows no better. If a dog is beaten since it was a puppy by his owners does that make it ok?? Of course not!! Caging any animal without regard for it’s needs and well being is wrong. But as humans it seems to be what we do. Educating people about the dangers that amphibians face and the causes and what we can do to help prevent it is very important. I have been reading alot on this forum where people’s pets have died. I believe most were in fact store bought. I have not seen anything regarding the death or shortened lifespan of wild caught. My thoughts are instead of aggressively going against wild caught amphibians maybe a better approach would be to educate people about them. Let people know there may be laws against keeping them or permits required to keep them etc etc. Allow people to make the best, informed decisions for themselves. I am of two minds with this subject. I believe with pet ownership comes great responsibility. And the argument should not be where the frog came from but how it is being kept. And that encompasses legalities to humane issues.  |
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| 06/21/06 06:17pm |
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Froggy&Gribbit View Profile |
Message To: Hoppy In reference to Message Id: 843480
And I do agree with alot of your points. Legislation protects alot of animals and most law abiding citizens follow these laws. But there are always those irrisponsible people who will disregard laws. And like you said if we can educate than that is great!!! I do not think there are many people who have "Pet" frogs for the benefit of the species, usually it is for personal pleasure. I do not agree with the fact that caging a wild animal is worse than keeping one that was raised in a box and therefore knows no better. If a dog is beaten since it was a puppy by his owners does that make it ok?? Of course not!! Caging any animal without regard for it’s needs and well being is wrong. But as humans it seems to be what we do. Educating people about the dangers that amphibians face and the causes and what we can do to help prevent it is very important. I have been reading alot on this forum where people’s pets have died. I believe most were in fact store bought. I have not seen anything regarding the death or shortened lifespan of wild caught. My thoughts are instead of aggressively going against wild caught amphibians maybe a better approach would be to educate people about them. Let people know there may be laws against keeping them or permits required to keep them etc etc. Allow people to make the best, informed decisions for themselves. I am of two minds with this subject. I believe with pet ownership comes great responsibility. And the argument should not be where the frog came from but how it is being kept. And that encompasses legalities to humane issues. |
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| 06/21/06 06:18pm |
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Herp13 View Profile |
Message To: Froggy&Gribbit In reference to Message Id: 843673 Captured versus store bought
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| 06/21/06 06:29pm |
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Whitie View Profile |
Message To: Herp13 In reference to Message Id: 843720 Captured versus store bought
And I am one that agrees that catching a wild animal,frog/toad/snake what ever, is wrong, for a pet. Most people that catch a wild pet have no clue on how to take care of it and come on here and expect us to tell them how. They will mix breeds,don’t feed the right foods,don’t know what the temps. & hum. should be. And there for the pet gets sick and suffers. Not to mention what the pet may be carring which could harm them or their kids. They also think that frogs should be played with and handled and that is one of the worse things that you can do. This subject can be talked about and talked about...but no one puts themself in that poor little critters place. How would you like a monster come and take you away from your home,family and friends and spend the rest of your life in a tank with that monster petting you, starving you, and not giving what you once had that you loved. Or putting you in a tank where a bully picks on you won’t let you eat and has the ability to eat you, or has a secreation that can kill or make you deathly ill? Most of these people have the attitude,...well if it dies I can just go catch another one. Not even trying to figure out what they did wrong to kill the other. Then putting it in a contaminated tank and it happens again. Please, just think about all the options before keeping something form from the outdoors. |
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| 06/21/06 07:03pm |
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Hoppy View Profile |
Message To: Whitie In reference to Message Id: 843816 Captured versus store bought
Dog breeders sell their dogs...they aren’t wild so if they can abuse something they have paid for and chose to buy you can imagine what something goes through that has no such commitments... HOPPY |
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| 06/21/06 07:09pm |
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Herp13 View Profile |
Message To: Whitie In reference to Message Id: 843816 Captured versus store bought
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| 06/21/06 07:15pm |
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Froggy&Gribbit View Profile |
Message To: Herp13 In reference to Message Id: 843842 Captured versus store bought
My opinion is simply that just because an amphibian is caught not bought does not necessarily make the owner wrong or a poor ambassador for the amphibian world. What makes a poor pet owner is someone who does not provide adequately for their pet. Like you said some animals only live in a one sq ft area their whole lives others need more. The point being no matter the froggie each owner needs to take the responsibility to care and provide for the animal. The idea that people catch things and then come and ask you guys how to care for it, is I think a little judgemental. How does anyone learn how to care for an animal except to ask those who know. I have seen questions go out like, hey I have WTF and I’m thinking about getting some greys what do I do differently? I don’t see that as any different. Although it is a good idea to research your frog BEFORE you have it in hand wondering how the hell you are going to feed and house it!!! |
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| 06/21/06 08:09pm |
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Whitie View Profile |
Message To: Froggy&Gribbit In reference to Message Id: 843970 Captured versus store bought
for instants.....Help found frog what do I do!!!??? They sit and wait and if no one answers they ask again. They don’t even bother to look here or on the web for a care sheet or try to id. it. We are suppose to tell them step by step what to do and id. it also. With no pic,not saying where they live. etc And the frog/toad has already not been taken care of. I agree asking questions is how you learn, but if they can’t think on their own to look up info on the web, then how well are they going to be able to take care of the frog/toad? I’m sure if it was a car or something they are to young to get into, they no how to search the web then. |
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| 06/21/06 08:27pm |
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Herp13 View Profile |
Message To: Whitie In reference to Message Id: 844008 Captured versus store bought
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| 06/21/06 08:38pm |
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Fuppy View Profile |
Message To: Froggy&Gribbit In reference to Message Id: 843970 Captured versus store bought
Quote: If you were suddenly put into a room for the rest of your days like jail would you be happy? But if you were raised in that room would you feel different?
If I were put in a room like a jail of coarse I would feel different but check this out. A room that has many things I love and I wouldnt have to worry about predators or bad weather plus I wouldnt have to find my own food. You cant compare the way humans would react to the way that animals would. But you can somewhat expect how they would react if they were givin the "perfect" life..at least thats what I think of it. Many people look at it like this. People just take animals from the wild and cage them up. They dont realize that some of these people actually house them very well and feed them right and everything. Although I think that most of the people who "take" from the wild dont know what they are really doing and just think that the animal is cool or whatever but this also happens in pet stores. A mom goes in to buy her child a pet and the child picks out a little green iguana not knowing how to care for it let alone that its going to get big...BIG. Bottom line is think if you were a toad. Someone picked you up and placed you in an enclosure and this enclosure was rather spacious and the temp was good. You will be nervous and scared for a little bit of coarse but then you realize that place isnt that bad. No predators or bad weather and you have your food placed in front of you almost every other day!! Not bad if you ask me. |
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| 06/21/06 08:39pm |
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Herp13 View Profile |
Message To: Fuppy In reference to Message Id: 844039 Captured versus store bought
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| 06/21/06 08:41pm |
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ILoveGreen View Profile |
Message To: Herp13 In reference to Message Id: 844046 Captured versus store bought
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| 06/21/06 09:09pm |
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Fuppy View Profile |
Message To: ILoveGreen In reference to Message Id: 844099 Captured versus store bought
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| 06/21/06 09:30pm |
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Froggy&Gribbit View Profile |
Message To: Herp13 In reference to Message Id: 844046 Captured versus store bought
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| 06/21/06 10:07pm |
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Herp13 View Profile |
Message To: Froggy&Gribbit In reference to Message Id: 844206 Captured versus store bought
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| 06/21/06 10:26pm |
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Hoppy View Profile |
Message To: Fuppy In reference to Message Id: 844039 Captured versus store bought
Make sure it is legal in your area first....some tads are protected too. They don’t breed well in captivity...in fact its never been done.....You would have to start with tads for any chance of survival.... FUPPY: To a wild animal any of them it won’t matter the deco food or space....its only train of thought will be freedom. That’s why so many go unsucessful in captive breeding programs...We do relize how many feed them right ect...If you look at this forum alone you can see how many captive frogs we lose....And these are easy to keep and care for. And yet conditions are known and were being kept correctly but still they die. How can we possibly know there exact requirements when they are not even being bred in captivity? Also a mom picking one out for her child and not knowing anything about it is correct...but the money she pays goes back to the captive breeding programs to further increase the pets security that future generations will be available. Herp is good at keeping frogs however that does not mean that in reality he can breed frogs or toads or if some wild caught will breed. Considering the amount of years breeding programs have been invented by zoologists and herpetologists and field studies...most species are still not successful.. American toads are one of those breeds.... Most require hybernation and rainy seasons as well as huge sections of water to breed. For example Whites have 3500 eggs and need huge pools of water... Now after years of captive programs they can be bred in much smaller enviornments but if it was so easy to breed them the prices would reflect this. Currently here they are $50 and in Australia $70 and some of the red eyes are $80 and the poison dart frogs are up to $365... If it was so easy every child that grew up with frogs would be doing it. Also in the wild they are losing ground. If breeding was so prominent they wouldn’t be losing. The laws governing many frogs and toads only try to keep what is already there for hopefully future generations. If the breeding was easy and captive programs available they wouldn’t need these laws in place. As experienced as I am....I wouldn’t attemp it....I know to well that I cannot mimic its enviornment well enought to justify removing it from the wild. So herp though your intentions are good....do you honestly think with the experience you have that you can do something that is yet unsuccessful by many? This is where you have to reason the truth of possibilities.... HOPPY |
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| 06/21/06 11:17pm |
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Fuppy View Profile |
Message To: Hoppy In reference to Message Id: 844340 Captured versus store bought
Quote: How can we possibly know there exact requirements when they are not even being bred in captivity?
American toads are bred in captivity so if you get one from the wild I would imagine they have close to the same care. Also there is a good thing called caresheets that tell you how to care for toads. Like I said I have done this before (keeping wild toads) and they lived a good life and probably are still living a good life. After a while they will adjust to captivity and do well Im sure. The ones I got 2 days ago ate alot today and are fine. I think I may let one or two go just because. |
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| 06/21/06 11:30pm |
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Hoppy View Profile |
Message To: Fuppy In reference to Message Id: 844364 Captured versus store bought
I don’t see a problem removing American toads from the wild to keep in captivity provided that the person doing the collecting has the correct permits so that it is legal. In much of their range American toad populations are on the increase. They are able to cope with changes in habitat fairly well and are common in both wild and urban areas as long as there is a source of water. Removing large numbers of toads from a single population for commercial purposes is not something I’d support, but a single toad for the pleasure and education of an amphibian enthusiast isn’t going to cause a problem. It should also be noted that American toads are not bred in captivity. Nobody does it. If they were available in the form of captive-bred stock I would recommend purchasing a captive-bred toad, but this is simply not an option. This is actually the case with the majority of amphibians in captivity. Unlike many reptiles, amphibians can be difficult to breed. Most species represented in the hobby are of wild origin and are not bred on a regular basis. I would see buying a green tree frog or fire-bellied toad as a much greater offence than capturing an American toad because by spending money on these wild-caught amphibians the keeper is encouraging the large scale commercial collectors. Feel free to post this on the thread that is discussing the topic. Devin Edmonds www.amphibiancare.com It states in this letter from your own source Fuppy that they are not bred in captivity. This is the same site that said it was ok to get them from the wild. He does not advocate taken large quantities....which makes no sense as who is going to control the amount taken. Also he is incorrect about the green tree frogs and the fire belly’s they are both captive bred... I’m glad your letting them go..... HOPPY |
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| 06/21/06 11:49pm |
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Joshsnakeman View Profile |
Message To: Fuppy In reference to Message Id: 844364 Captured versus store bought
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| 06/21/06 11:55pm |
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Whitie View Profile |
Message To: Hoppy In reference to Message Id: 844405 Captured versus store bought
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| 06/22/06 12:29am |
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Fuppy View Profile |
Message To: Whitie In reference to Message Id: 844481 Captured versus store bought
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| 06/22/06 02:22am |
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ReptileKing$ View Profile |
Message To: Fuppy In reference to Message Id: 844607 Captured versus store bought
Joshsnakeman you aid it is illegal to take wild animals out of the wild when you have yourself which is illegal. You have a snake that you caught and kept. |
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| 06/22/06 09:58am |
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Whitie View Profile |
Message To: Fuppy In reference to Message Id: 844607 Captured versus store bought
That is another big problem people have when taking in frog/toads, when they decide they don’t want them anymore they just take them out and dump them. That is so wrong!!!! |
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| 06/22/06 10:13am |
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SnakeLover24 View Profile |
Message To: Joshsnakeman In reference to Message Id: 843474 Captured versus store bought
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| 06/22/06 10:18am |
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ReptileKing$ View Profile |
Message To: SnakeLover24 In reference to Message Id: 844893 Captured versus store bought
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| 06/22/06 10:29am |
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Joshsnakeman View Profile |
Message To: ReptileKing$ In reference to Message Id: 844910 Captured versus store bought
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| 06/22/06 11:09am |
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