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#1845869
Dislimbed
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Why? 
Why does everyone(almost everyone) say that loose substrate(dirt to be exact) is bad?
I am betting that no one here that claims dirt is bad and will cause impactions has ever experianced an impaction when they use proper temps. They just go by what they hear, not experiance. And experiance is key.
There are pics and stories on the internet about loose substrate being bad for leos, but they dont mention their temps, and i know they weren’t giving they’re leo proper temps, because then the impaction never would’ve happened. So the experts here shouldnt be telling new people that loose substrates are bad, because they are not bad at all and are not the reason for impaction.
A 95 degree surface temp is a good factor in why an impaction may occur when using loose substrate, but thats because its too low and wont aide in proper digestion. I use around 105 for my surface temps.
So what are your thoughts/comments on this, and who agrees or disagrees with me?
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08/29/08 05:11am
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#1845885
Active42
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Message To: Dislimbed In reference to Message Id: 1845869
Why?
I have to go to school, so I cant really right something long. I can argue both sides, so dont attack me. BUT, there are countless of people that come on here who use loose substrate that had to deal with impaction.
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08/29/08 07:01am
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#1845916
BooByVu
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Message To: Dislimbed In reference to Message Id: 1845869
Why?
I just dont use dirt/sand because its dirty and risky. Newspaper and paper towels are much easier to clean (in my opinion that is). I just think that in the wild, leos live in sand but now they are captive pets, so their surroundings should be changed accordingly. Just like your pet dog. they use to live in the wild, that doesnt mean ill make my dog go hunt for his own food. We as keepers just do what we THINK is best for the animals. We all have different opinions on this and Im not saying that either side is wrong but I dont think this forum needs another blowout about this topic again. There has been like 50 so its not like a forum discussion will suddenly change anyone’s mind about this. Ofcourse this is all just my opinion, feel free to keep fighting this battle of no ends.
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08/29/08 08:34am
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#1845997
Slove1106
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Message To: BooByVu In reference to Message Id: 1845916
Why?
I personally don’t use it because of personal preference due to cleaning issues, messiness and such. Not because someone on the internet said it. This debate is just like any debate you come around. Whether it be religion, sex preference, or politics. It’s a matter of opinion and that’s it. There’s plenty of people that follow the trend of everyone else without doing their own research, then go on and continue passing on misleading information. It’s annoying really.
But if I were to use sand, for one, I will openly announce it. I’m sure there’s plenty of people out there that use it but stay quiet because they feel they’ll be mobbed by the anti-sand fanatics. I don’t tip-toe around people so if I used it, I’d say it. I’d also state how it works for me so I may add to the statistical population and further the research. I believe so many people use sand and DON’T have problems. They’re just afraid to say so because of the continuous judgment by those who "believe" everything they hear. So those people’s data never gets counted in this "research". (I call it research because I personally don’t believe there’s been enough done on the matter to rule it out. I deal with statistics, not hearsay and opinions) I don’t believe there’s been enough research done to rule out using sand.
That said, if I were to use sand then have problems, I would count that in as well. One day there’ll be enough PROFESSIONAL research done on this matter that we may know the real statistics and pros and cons of using sand. But for now, it seems that everyone’s opinions get in the way. Yep. That’s my two cents.
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08/29/08 10:48am
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#1846032
AditiLuna
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Message To: Slove1106 In reference to Message Id: 1845997
Why?
My ambient temps are at around 95 on the hot side with a 102 basking spot, and before I had heard about impaction, I used calci sand, and my leo became impacted. On other forums and I believe this one I have heard of many experiences like mine, and my vet has told me that it is very common and how frustrated he is that people insist on using sand and that petstores even still sell it. It is a risk - which means not every leo will have a problem - but i think it’s your responsibility as an owner to do everything in your power to keep your pet safe, which means reducing all the possible risks. I don’t really understand why people are so adamant about using sand - Tile is cheaper in the long run, and cleaner. i have never used dirt but I have heard similar stories with dirt, but I just think it’s dirty, like everyone else said. If you see pix of them in the wild they are mostly on rocks, or packed dirt - I have never seen a pic of a wild leo on sand - if you could produce one for me I would be interested. I don’t think people who use sand are necessarily bad owners, and I understand that very experienced leo keepers know how to keep the risk down, but no matter what there is still a risk - and I would definitely never recommend particulate substrate to a beginner, because they might not have the right temps, and a calcium dish, and might not recognize a problem in time. I guess the bottom line is that there are great cheap substrates out there with no risk, so why use sand that is messy and risky? I do think that it is irresponsible to put the LOOK of the vivarium over the HEALTH of the leo. Plus shelf liner, repti carpet, and tile all look great. I use repti carpet on the bottom, but the ground is almost entirely covered with rocks for climbing and basking, which is natural and safe, and my leos are very happy (ever since we got the sand off and cured the impaction) and healthy and my cage is very easy to clean, and the rocks were free and I just rewash them, so I only have to buy new repticarpet every couple months.
Basically, it’s not a mater of ’why not?’ it’s a matter of ’why?’ when there is a risk.
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08/29/08 11:43am
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#1849256
Squeaky
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Message To: AditiLuna In reference to Message Id: 1846032
Why?
this subject is one of the most talked about thread on here and any where else for that matter but my opinion is the same as Dislimbed. i think if you have perfect temperatures then impaction shouldnt happen. some people say that if you have great temps that they can digest their food and the substrate they ingest also. so if you have your gecko on repticarpet you are making sure their is no impaction what so ever but repticarpet sucks! it doesnt let your gecko burrow which if yoou had dirt you would realize they do this to cool down. i bet you that they love dirt more than they like carpet because it gives them more choices for tems and burrowing and such. i worded this paragraph wrong now that i realize it but i hope you get the point. the gecko can take care of its self and it knows what it is doing....
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09/02/08 01:00am
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#1850165
Estott
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Message To: Squeaky In reference to Message Id: 1849256
Why?
i went from apparently the worst possible stuff (ground wall nut shell) to sand to carpet. my first Leo which i still have was on the Wall-nut for about 9 months before i switched her off of it, she did just fine on it no impaction. she went to sand for a few months, again no impaction. when i found this forum i read that the loose substrates where bad so i switched to the carpet, so i have used a little of everything and have had no problems. as far as i am concerned it is all up to you. i like the carpet that i use now because i can make it last for a good while and when i have to do full tank cleans i don’t have to dump a bunch of sand out of the tank. any how when i see that some one wants to use sand i don’t have any thought about it, if that is what they want to use than that’s what they are going to use.
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09/03/08 03:37am
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#1850176
Shutterstud06
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Message To: Estott In reference to Message Id: 1850165
Why?
Tinker has been on Eco earth most of the time that I’ve owned her, she’s produced several clutches of fertile eggs (was breed at the petstore before I got her) and I’ve gotten 5 of those eggs to hatch and live. Hopefully she’s done laying this season but that’s because I want to get a male and choose who she’s breed with (and get better set up for her). Anyways, alot of her tank was covered in eco earth. I used rocks to take up some of the space and she had two huge tubs to dig in (until I recently moved her). I personally do not care for the look of sand, which like eco earth, will move all over the cage and not stay just pretty where you want it. I’m a fan for having the loose substance in the cage for them to talk in although I’m liking the look of her most recent digs (check other post for pictures, my new tank set up or something like that). This does not mean I wont do a loose substance again, it merely means that until I have a tank set up how I would like it, with the rock wall and such, no loose substance.
I plan on taking the 40 breeder I have, making about 1/3 or 1/4 of it into a six in or so deep bed of loose substance for her to burrow in if she wants. I mean we can all argue what’s best and whats not best for our animals. But our animals are like our children, do we not allow them to play outdoors because they might get sunburned, stung by a bee or scrap a knee? No, we keep an eye on them, we monitored their behavior ect.
Personally for a baby or juvenile I would not use a loose substance, except for in their warm moist hide, but it’s easier to monitor their fecal and other such things with white paper on the bottom of their tank. Nothing can be hidden that way. An adult, now that’s a different story. I also have live plants in my Tinker’s cage, two of them, driftwood and other things. The more you enrich their environment, which may not be exactly natural but more natural then the sterilized tile, hide, no hidden spaces, ect of most tanks the more behavior one can view.
People who don’t do their research, then yes I would say never use sand with your leopard geckos. But that’s because most new gecko owners buy a juvenile leopard gecko and don’t understand the risks involved with sand. Anyways, I’m late for work.
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09/03/08 05:13am
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#1850509
Zeek2493
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Message To: Shutterstud06 In reference to Message Id: 1850176
Why?
my leo died from impaction because the petco people told me it was alright >:(
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09/03/08 03:05pm
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#1850537
Hacksaw
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Message To: Zeek2493 In reference to Message Id: 1850509
Why?
I skimmed through the thread. Anyone mention that WITH proper temperatures and use dirt humidity would be at an unhealthy rate for the gecko? There should be like a law against this. lol.
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09/03/08 03:46pm
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#1854268
3240
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Message To: Hacksaw In reference to Message Id: 1850537
Why?
Hacksaw,
Not sure that I understand your post.
The original poster mentioned dirt. Everyone else assumed that dirt means sand. Sand is not dirt. These geckos do not live on sand, they live on dirt.
I’ve used dirt for twenty years for my geckos, bearded dragons, and monitors. I’ve never had a single problem with impaction. I keep very high end geckos on dirt without any concerns.
I truly believe that impaction is caused primarily by dehydration. Most enclosures that I see for geckos have an open top, sand or tile, with some type of heat source. You could make beef jerky in these enclosures.
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09/08/08 03:27am
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#1854519
Yeroc62
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Message To: 3240 In reference to Message Id: 1854268
Why?
I don’t use dirt or sand with my leos for the simple fact that, having 16 of them, I have too much invested (time, money and emotions) to even bother taking a risk of losing any of them to impaction or a URI.
Denise
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09/08/08 02:36pm
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#1854551
3240
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Message To: Yeroc62 In reference to Message Id: 1854519
Why?
Denise,
I have over a hundred right now including enigmas, diablo blancos, etc. All are on dirt. It’s not at all risky or I wouldn’t be doing it.
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09/08/08 03:08pm
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#1890691
Dislimbed
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Message To: 3240 In reference to Message Id: 1854551
Why?
Thanks for all the replies peeps.
Quote: I have over a hundred right now including enigmas, diablo blancos, etc. All are on dirt. It’s not at all risky or I wouldn’t be doing it.
Amen.
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10/31/08 12:30am
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#1890754
Mandrain
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Message To: Dislimbed In reference to Message Id: 1890691
Why?
I think for the most part, some people on here tell the newbies not to use sand/dirt because they usually don’t have any experience. I learned the hard way that i shouldn’t have used sand. I had my little Mandarin for about 5 months and 4 out of those 5, I was trying to nurse him back to health, it was awful. He died last month, and I miss him sooo much! I wish someone would have told me in the beginning that sand can cause impaction because if they did then maybe i would still have my baby. Or if they would have told me about the certain temps you need with it. I didn’t even know that leo’s like 105. Mandarin’s temps were in the lower 90’s. Maybe they should put on care sheets the different things you need or sand, and the difference for non sand users. IDK I don’t have a problem with experienced parents of adult leo’s using sand, it’s your choice. But i think that someone needs to help educate the newbies on the effects. I hope all that made some sense. My thoughts were scrambled!
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10/31/08 08:19am
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#1890855
AvandisFifth
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Message To: Dislimbed In reference to Message Id: 1845869
Why?
I presonally don’t use sad because (like most people that don’t use it), it’s just too messy. Not to mention if a mealy or two get out you’re gonna have a hard time finding them because they dig down into it. The last gecko I used sand with died, but it was because of an extreme parasitic infection that apperently started from poor keeping at the pet store I got it from. Same thing with the one before that. Honestly, I wouldn’t use it on juveniles mainly because they aren’t quite skilled enough in catching their prey without alot of substrate in their mouth too. I think it’s best to use something that they can’t even swallow let alone ingest. With adults, though, I don’t see much of an issue with it. I’ve even seen them utilize it in hunting tactics (setting traps, digging ravines to funnel the crickets into smaller areas, etc.).
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10/31/08 01:04pm
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