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 #1303239


Brizby
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 To Phrynosoma_Texas_FS3

I recently went to a pet store to purchase our daily crickets and in one tank i saw a pair of Phrynosoma platyrhinos. I sort of knew about the charm of these reptiles from tv and books and i also checked your care sheet and the links about desert horned lizards. My question it’s about the ants, of course. I am positive that those 2 guys i saw in the store are captive bred and they come from europe. I checked some of the websites that provide information about keeping HL in captivity and most of them didn’t even mentioned ants and the ones that did used a substitute for the harvester ants. Do you think that Lasius Flavus can be a good substitute? Do you know other types of ants that can replace the harvester ants? I’m asking this because i would like to purchase that pair but i would like to know before that if i can provide at least a minimum (if that’s possible) amount of ants. It’s practically impossible to order that harvester ants in europe (I live in europe). I also don’t get why many people that claimed that have these creatures for many years and bred them successfully in captivity provide a NON-ants information? It troubles me... Thank you in advance and all the best!
06/02/07  06:24pm

 #1303904


Phrynosoma_Texas_FS3
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   Message To: Brizby   In reference to Message Id: 1303239


 To Phrynosoma_Texas_FS3

You cannot be positive about their origin unless you speak to the actual breeder who supplies them. It is typical for retailers to claim their reptiles are captive bred, for obvious reasons. But they also know it is hard to substantiate such claims, therfore, they take advantage. It is only slightly more likely that being in Europe means the platyrhinos are CB. Platyrhinos are still the single species with the fewest restrictions. They can be gathered by the truck load in Nevada and are shipped around the world with relative ease. Therefore, it is more often than not the case that in order to keep overhead down and make the most profit for what a market will bear, that these stores utilize sources of cheap wild caught animals wherever they can get away with it. When in the past I have gotten a captive bred reptile, I make a visit to the actual breeder and view his operation or I talk to people I know in the herp community. I do not take the word at face value of anyone trying to make a sale on a reptile. Certainly less so where it concerns retail pet stores.

What websites did you check on their captive husbandry? I don’t know of any such sites which do not mention ants, certianly not respected ones amongst the HL community that I’m aware of.

What country are you in? I have talked to someone in Germany once who stated he could import Pogonomyrmex without problem. But he wanted queens, and I don’t sell queens. I have talked to numerous people in the UK who have asked me about importation, but not one has gotten back to me with a definite answer on what the Royal Mail or customs says with certainty. The answers I have gotten seems to indicate that customs in the UK thinks harvester ants might pose a risk to natural fauna and flora if they were to escape. Yet, there would be no danger of that if queens were not included. The workers would die of in a few months without propagating, and these ants would likely not flourish in the UK climate. In the humid greenery and woodlands of east Texas for example, these ants cannot be found. They reside in the arid southwest US. There also seemed to be some difficulty because the person who was supposed to be inquiring with UK mail and customs had given them the wrong ant species name, and only used the common name "harvester ant". I would like to ship them to the UK and the rest of Europe, and find someone to setup as an intermediary distributor as there is a growing community of keepers particularly in Germany and the UK. I have shipped them with success to the Montreal zoo, and they made it through customs.

I have heard that some overseas have used L. flavus. I think the herpetologist Baur has used them. They produce and alarm pheremone and I’m not sure of it’s effects, so I have never used them. P. platyrhinos in the wild also enjoy Myrmecocystus (honeypot ants) along with Pogonomyrmex. If you could find honey pots that would be good, but they are generally found on harvester ant trails trying to steal food, and are eaten by HLs probably incidentaly. Are you sure the Lasius species you have access to are flavus?

I don’t recommend anything to "replace" Pogonomyrmex harvester ants for species of Phrynosoma which dine on them in large numbers in the wild. I don’t think the specific components which makes Pogonomyrmex their favorite can be found in other substitutes, or they would be eating more of these other ants in the wild. I think the best indicator of what is best for these lizards is found in observations of their wild habits.

Others may have had "success" without Pogonomyrmex or even ants, but the only person of note I know to do so was a herpetologist, and he at least used ants. I have gone the route of non-ant diets in my first couple of years of keeping Horned Lizards, and I no longer recommend that. These lizards are obligate ant foragers and the composition of ants suits their biology in many ways. Other non-ant feeders such as crickets and mealworms should not be used as a primary food source. I cover that in many posts as well as in the caresheet. My continued research into Phrynosoma leads me to the theory that the formic acid component of Pogonomyrmex venom ( and some other constituent of these seed harvesting ants ) provides these lizards with a source of essential fatty acids ( protein builders ) and energy they required to remain active, whilst avoiding slowing them down with "heavier" triglyceride fatty prey, which is also commonly high in hard to digest chitin. The nutrients from these ants is easily dissociated from the ant bodies through wash with bowel secretion, without the lizard having to chew the prey, nor break it down slowly in the gut as with prey such as crickets. I also feel based on the research of Montanucci that the acidic venom helps guard against parasites and infection.

L. flavus would be better than a no ant diet, but if at all possible I think that these lizards do best when Pogonomrymex are available to some degree. I suspect those in Europe selling Horned Lizards and alternate diets have to push that point of view because they know the trouble of providing these lizards with their natural diet. They couldn’t sell them if they told people how hard it might be to provide the natural diet.

Check back soon as I have a revised caresheet coming out that will dwarf the first one in informative content. I have also just established a group on yahoo to distribute the many scientific papers in pdf format that I have accumulated since beginning with Horned Lizards. I’ll PM you the link as I cannot post it here.



06/03/07  07:35am

 #1303920


Phrynosoma_Texas_FS3
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   Message To: Phrynosoma_Texas_FS3   In reference to Message Id: 1303904


 To Phrynosoma_Texas_FS3

well they won’t let me PM you with the address either! PM me with your email and I’ll email it to you.



06/03/07  08:13am

 #1303921


Phrynosoma_Texas_FS3
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   Message To: Phrynosoma_Texas_FS3   In reference to Message Id: 1303920


 To Phrynosoma_Texas_FS3

I just updated my profile and linked it there.



06/03/07  08:15am

 #1303936


Brizby
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   Message To: Phrynosoma_Texas_FS3   In reference to Message Id: 1303921


 To Phrynosoma_Texas_FS3

I sent the request for joining the yahoo forum that you mentioned. Thank you for your time spent in explaining me these things. I will pm you or actually email you more info about what you asked.



06/03/07  09:00am


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