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 #1317755


Knowledgeseeker89
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 Help on breding and reintroducing

I have been discussing an idea with my mom for a while and the idea has just become a plan my family is willing to do what it takes to breed horned toads. but first i thought i would get the basics from those who know like what is needed exactly for them so when we get them they will be as comfortable as possible and where to get them other than searching for ever on the Internet or driving to every pet store in Houston and whats the best way to transport them. Also the best way to bred them and release them with out risking damage to them. Any help would be highly appreciated i know it wont be easy but its a sacrifice I’m willing to make to try.
06/13/07  11:14pm

 #1318137


Phrynosoma_Texas_FS3
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   Message To: Knowledgeseeker89   In reference to Message Id: 1317755


 Help on breding and reintroducing

Well that’s a pretty tall order! Several of us have been working up to attempting such things for years. Reintroduction of captive bred Horned Lizards is not easy, even for wildlife biologists with funds and equipment. You can’t just hatch babies and let them go somewhere. The Horned Lizards you would find legally for sale in any pet store in Houston would not be native here. Unless you plan to drive to Nevada to release captive bred Horned Lizards, that’s not an option. It’s much more complex. My first question would be: do you have any reptile experience at all, and with what genus or species? Second question is: What species of Horned Lizard were you planning on breeding and releasing, and where specifically?

If you are serious about such an undertaking, then the first thing you need to do is make plans to be at the Horned Lizard Conservation Society seminar/meeting in Ft. Worth next month. This will include a tour of the Ft. Worth zoo’s captive P. cornutum breeding program. I plan to be there. You can find the details on this and many scientific papers about Horned Lizards on the link to my page, under my profile. If you plan to work with breeding native Texas Horned Lizards, such as the P. cornutum, you will need an endangered species propagation permit from Texas Parks and Wildlife Dept., which is a little over $500 dollars for 3 years. Otherwise you will have to breed P. modestum if you plan on making releases in Texas. Even then, it would have to be the western half of the state, as to my knowledge, only the P. cornutum was ever native in the Houston area.



06/14/07  10:26am

 #1318317


CoolBreeze
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   Message To: Phrynosoma_Texas_FS3   In reference to Message Id: 1318137


 Help on breding and reintroducing

Why do they make it so hard to help?

I Live in Corpus Christi, and when I was a kid (I’m 37 now) we would go to our cabin about 50 miles north on the Nueces river, near Georgwest . I remember when you could take an hour walk and see no less than 2 or 3 of these little guys. And if you actually looked for them you could some times find 5 or 6 in a day. Now you could search all day and be hard pressed to find 1. There is a lot of farm land and ranches in this area so I don’t know if it was the pesticides, the fire ants or a combination of both.

I don’t know what species these were but would be interested to know what they might have been and if any progress has been made in bringing them back to this area.

Phrynosoma - These questions are for you:
- Have you all determined what caused their demise in my area?
- If so, do the those same conditions exist here?
- What is being done to correct the problem?
- Is there anything we can do as regular folks to help?
- If the fire ants are the problem why don’t they just eat the fire ant like they did the army ants? are the fire ants just too aggressive.
- If it’s the pesticides that were used back in the 70’s and 80’s, aren’t they using something different now that won’t be as harmful?

I’ve got some more questions but will wait.

This Horned Lizard Conservation Society seminar sounds very interesting. Is it open to the public and do they ever meet in the Corpus Christi area? DFW is a bit too far for me at this time.





06/14/07  01:10pm

 #1318503


Phrynosoma_Texas_FS3
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   Message To: CoolBreeze   In reference to Message Id: 1318317


 Help on breding and reintroducing

>Why do they make it so hard to help?

You mean the state? Because they are state protected by law and want to discourage average people keeping them who don’t know enough about them since they are in popluation demise. There’s some red tape too, and they like to be able to derive fees of course, like any govt. agency.

The species you saw in C.C. would have been P. cornutum. The other two native to Texas never lived that far south to my knowledge.

>Have you all determined what caused their demise in my area?

Yes there are several reasons, and they’re pretty much the same everywhere the lizards are having trouble.

#1 habitat destruction for subdivisions and such
#2 red fire ant invasions. The fire ant preys upon the harvester ants that these lizards eat. They kill the queens and the harvester ants can’t compete with these little fireants by the millions.
#3 people using pesticides to kill fire ants, which also kills the good ants, and the Horny Toads.
#4 collection to a smaller degree contributes to their demise.

> If so, do the those same conditions exist here?
Yup, everywhere.

> What is being done to correct the problem?

-Trying to educate people to not kill the harvester ants ( the big red ones ), and discourage using pesticides to kill insects where harvester anst and Horny Toads are known to live.
-Making people aware of how habitat destruction and unregulated collection harms them too.
-wildlife biologists are working on a fire ant specific virus to target and kill them off as much as possible. I’m not sure how far along they are on that.
-many herpetologists and biologist are working on captive breeding program and reintroduction research.

> Is there anything we can do as regular folks to help?

-report sightings of Horny Toads or harvester ants to the Texas Parks & Wildlife Horned Lizard watch program. You can download the forms from the net.
-you can also join the HLCS at hornedlizards.org
-be mindful of pesticide use if harvester ants are around. Try to avoid killing the "good" ants. Tell others about it too if you have open ranch land nearby, where these ants usually live.

> If the fire ants are the problem why don’t they just eat the fire ant like they did the army ants? are the fire ants just too aggressive.

S. invicta species of fire ant are too aggressive and small for the lizards to deal with. They swarm in too many numbers for the Horny Toad to tackle. They also possess an alkyloid venom as opposed to the acidic venom of the harvester ants, that the Horny Toads rely upon.

> If it’s the pesticides that were used back in the 70’s and 80’s, aren’t they using something different now that won’t be as harmful?

The pesticides aren’t species specific. They kill any ants. Good and bad.

>This Horned Lizard Conservation Society seminar sounds very interesting. Is it open to the public and do they ever meet in the Corpus Christi area? DFW is a bit too far for me at this time.

The meeting place changes every time, but it is open to the public if you register. I think the low end fee this year is $10. For $25 you get to eat and take the captive breeding program tour.



06/14/07  03:43pm

 #1318506


Phrynosoma_Texas_FS3
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   Message To: CoolBreeze   In reference to Message Id: 1318317


 Help on breding and reintroducing

>Why do they make it so hard to help?

You mean the state? Because they are state protected by law and want to discourage average people keeping them who don’t know enough about them since they are in popluation demise. There’s some red tape too, and they like to be able to derive fees of course, like any govt. agency.

The species you saw in C.C. would have been P. cornutum. The other two native to Texas never lived that far south to my knowledge.

>Have you all determined what caused their demise in my area?

Yes there are several reasons, and they’re pretty much the same everywhere the lizards are having trouble.

#1 habitat destruction for subdivisions and such
#2 red fire ant invasions. The fire ant preys upon the harvester ants that these lizards eat. They kill the queens and the harvester ants can’t compete with these little fireants by the millions.
#3 people using pesticides to kill fire ants, which also kills the good ants, and the Horny Toads.
#4 collection to a smaller degree contributes to their demise.

> If so, do the those same conditions exist here?
Yup, everywhere.

> What is being done to correct the problem?

-Trying to educate people to not kill the harvester ants ( the big red ones ), and discourage using pesticides to kill insects where harvester anst and Horny Toads are known to live.
-Making people aware of how habitat destruction and unregulated collection harms them too.
-wildlife biologists are working on a fire ant specific virus to target and kill them off as much as possible. I’m not sure how far along they are on that.
-many herpetologists and biologist are working on captive breeding program and reintroduction research.

> Is there anything we can do as regular folks to help?

-report sightings of Horny Toads or harvester ants to the Texas Parks & Wildlife Horned Lizard watch program. You can download the forms from the net.
-you can also join the HLCS at hornedlizards.org
-be mindful of pesticide use if harvester ants are around. Try to avoid killing the "good" ants. Tell others about it too if you have open ranch land nearby, where these ants usually live.

> If the fire ants are the problem why don’t they just eat the fire ant like they did the army ants? are the fire ants just too aggressive.

S. invicta species of fire ant are too aggressive and small for the lizards to deal with. They swarm in too many numbers for the Horny Toad to tackle. They also possess an alkyloid venom as opposed to the acidic venom of the harvester ants, that the Horny Toads rely upon.

> If it’s the pesticides that were used back in the 70’s and 80’s, aren’t they using something different now that won’t be as harmful?

The pesticides aren’t species specific. They kill any ants. Good and bad.

>This Horned Lizard Conservation Society seminar sounds very interesting. Is it open to the public and do they ever meet in the Corpus Christi area? DFW is a bit too far for me at this time.

The meeting place changes every time, but it is open to the public if you register. I think the low end fee this year is $10. For $25 you get to eat and take the captive breeding program tour.



06/14/07  03:44pm

 #1318613


Funky munky
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   Message To: Phrynosoma_Texas_FS3   In reference to Message Id: 1318506


 Help on breding and reintroducing

here we go again. LOL!!!
06/14/07  05:33pm

 #1318616


Funky munky
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   Message To: Funky munky   In reference to Message Id: 1318613


 Help on breding and reintroducing

just kidding!!!
06/14/07  05:35pm

 #1319044


Knowledgeseeker89
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   Message To: Phrynosoma_Texas_FS3   In reference to Message Id: 1318137


 Help on breding and reintroducing

I understand it will require alot of work, i am willing to put up money and space as i said before i will have help from my parents to aquire what is needed. And i live by areas i believe they may have a chance and on top of that some other relatives in or around the houston area who would like to release some in there area. I have already discussed the fact that we wont be able to buy the right kind for our area in our pet stores. I dont have a vast knowlege for reptiles other than turtles, but both of my parents have owned many others. It will be a family effort, but before we start we want to be able to keep them comfortably, and though we could buy books i thought i should ask some experts and this sight and the one you name yourself after were the best that i could find for information from people who know and truely care. My mom wants to breed the ones you could find in Eagal Lake Texas when she was younger, she doesnt know the exact kind.
06/14/07  10:58pm

 #1319092


Knowledgeseeker89
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   Message To: Knowledgeseeker89   In reference to Message Id: 1319044


 Help on breding and reintroducing

also please dont waste my comments with petty junk i get excited to learn then disappointed by the gossip that i find. Thanks to future posters. Im a teenager i get enough drama at school im only here for info. so thats all i want if you have a problem with someone comment on your own space.


Again thanks, and sorry>
06/14/07  11:26pm

 #1319094


Knowledgeseeker89
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   Message To: Knowledgeseeker89   In reference to Message Id: 1319044


 Help on breding and reintroducing

also please dont waste my comments with petty junk i get excited to learn then disappointed by the gossip that i find. Thanks to future posters. Im a teenager i get enough drama at school im only here for info. so thats all i want if you have a problem with someone comment on your own space.


Again thanks, and sorry>
06/14/07  11:27pm

 #1319177


Phrynosoma_Texas_FS3
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   Message To: Knowledgeseeker89   In reference to Message Id: 1319044


 Help on breding and reintroducing

What you are talking about doing is not going to be a reality anytime soon, or maybe ever. You see there is a reason that Horned Lizards don’t live in the Houston and surrounding areas anymore. I know, I’m originally from Huntsville. I’ve lived all over that area. The last one I saw down there was in the late 70s. Breeding and releasing Horned Lizards down there now would just sentence them to death. The conditions that killed the Horned Lizards off down there are still present, and until that is fixed all the reintroduction in the world is just going to be wasted effort. The ecosystem has changed and the place is overrun with fire ants....so they won’t take.

Any serious reintroduction effort has to be conducted in areas where Pogonomrymex harvester ants are present. Without them you just aren’t going to be able to sustain wild Horned Lizards. That’s why the Horned Lizards now all live much farther west. You would have to release them in central or west Texas to give them a chance. And there’s a specific way to introduce reptiles to an area; you can’t hatch them at home and take them as babies and drop them off in a new locaton. They mentally imprint on the area from hatching, so the clutch needs to be placed in the wild before they hatch.



06/15/07  12:11am


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