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 Member  Message

 #1086735


KRoCc
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 Monitor crosses

i was told by a certain individual who breeds monitors in los angeles where i live and signal hill california and he tells me that any two monitors can breed.is this true?i really dont beleive it due to the size ranges but anything can be posible right?

me myself i aint a big fan of cross breeding i have 2 akc blue line staddforshire terriers I.E. pit bulls and id never breed outside of there blue line.and some crosses makes animals crazy so is it true all monitors can be cross breed?

thanks.
felipe.



12/07/06  06:32pm

 #1086818


Shawdow
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   Message To: KRoCc   In reference to Message Id: 1086735


 Monitor crosses

Sure, try putting an adult ackie and an adult crocodile monitor and see what happens! We’ll have ackodile monitors! WOOOO
12/07/06  07:36pm

 #1086895


Petboy15
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   Message To: Shawdow   In reference to Message Id: 1086818


 Monitor crosses

No, well have a croc monitor whos still hungry
12/07/06  08:19pm

 #1086995


Field_Herper
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   Message To: KRoCc   In reference to Message Id: 1086735


 Monitor crosses

Just about any sexually mature monitors of similar size can be bred. If they are kept in adequate conditions, monitors will breed, even with monitors of other species. They don’t even have to be closely related, like argus, gouldi and flavies are (I am referring to flavi/argus, flavi/argus/gouldi, etc. crosses). On the kingsnake forums, I remember a post by Frank Retes about a bosc and something that was distantly related (not really "distantly," but in terms of species within the genus). I believe that it was an argus. They bred, laid eggs, and the eggs hatched. I think Frank said that they looked basically like regular boscs, though.

A monitor’s lot in life is to reproduce, and they take just about every chance they get. That is, if they are healthy. Sometimes, though, they will attempt to breed even when they aren’t healthy and in adequate conditions, usually resulting very badly.

Ryan
12/07/06  09:28pm

 #1087158


JPsShadow
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   Message To: KRoCc   In reference to Message Id: 1086735


 I am an amstaff breeder

Yeah dont breed your blue amstaff to a black amstaff haha if they are AKC then they are not pitbulls as they do not recognize that name. But anyways enough about dogs this is a monitor forum.

Breeding one type of monitor to another is not always going to be comparable to that of the breeding of dogs you mentioned. More like breeding a great dane to a lab or chihuaua etc.

Nothing is fact until it has been proven. So at this time I dont think we can say yes they can all be crossed. We do know that closely related monitors have been crossed such as that in the gouldi complex flavis, argus, and goulds. I don’t know of any confirmed crosses of say a bosc and a dumeril, or ackie and timor etc..
12/07/06  11:12pm

 #1087171


KRoCc
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   Message To: JPsShadow   In reference to Message Id: 1087158


 I am an amstaff breeder

figures.thanks for the input it sounded wierd when he said it but thats craazy a bosc mix wow...lol
12/07/06  11:21pm

 #1087738


JimmyDavid
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   Message To: KRoCc   In reference to Message Id: 1087171


 I am an amstaff breeder

I don’t think a Komodo will care to breed with any other midget..lol. They are monitors too.
Well, perhaps a very very big salvator could have a chance. I don’t know. But i’m sure komodo dragons look at other lizard species more as food than "dating material".
12/08/06  03:50pm

 #1087758


Toki99
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   Message To: JimmyDavid   In reference to Message Id: 1087738


 I am an amstaff breeder

actually i have herd i think it was on animal planet a while ago but i did hear they where gonna attempt tto breed a small female komodo with a smaller type of lizard to try and bring its size down so that around 2015 or so we coul dkeep them as pets and they would only reach a four-6 foot full size and they where also trying to get rid of the well bacterial spit(that ppl say is venom)
but this may have been a lie
jsut what i herd
steve
12/08/06  04:16pm

 #1087804


Field_Herper
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   Message To: Toki99   In reference to Message Id: 1087758


 I am an amstaff breeder

I wouldn’t keep them. It would be pointless to cross komodos with anything else (I also don’t feel the need to cross other monitors, but I was just saying that you could. I don’t really advise you to do it). You wouldn’t be owning a komodo monitor, you would be owning a cross. If I were going to purchase a six foot monitor, then I would get a pure one, like an ionides. Now, the flavi/argus crosses were accidental, and the common breeding of them in captivity can’t be reversed. You could eradicate them all, but the monitors can’t help being what they are. Sorry, now I am just starting to ramble on...

Ryan
12/08/06  05:12pm

 #1087857


KRoCc
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   Message To: Field_Herper   In reference to Message Id: 1087804


 I am an amstaff breeder

why have a komodo if it aint huge and nasty.but i thought if a komodo was captive breed and captive hatched then the bactieral silava wont exisit in its blood?

well thats what i believed.
12/08/06  05:58pm

 #1087933


Acken
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   Message To: KRoCc   In reference to Message Id: 1087857


 I am an amstaff breeder

Because komodo dragons get the bacteria in ther salivia from eating rooton meat and carrion if kept captive and given fresh foods, there bite will only be as deadly as any other from a 200 pound monitor.
12/08/06  07:02pm

 #1087951


Field_Herper
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   Message To: KRoCc   In reference to Message Id: 1087857


 I am an amstaff breeder

There was an article that I read (mostly skimmed) that said that all monitors exhibit this "bacterial saliva." However, they all have it to a different extent. Of course, I am not sure how much truth was in this article...

Anyway, that part doesn’t really matter if you are keeping a monitor as large as a komodo. They are still going to be dangerous captives, which will require the most experienced and responsible keepers.

Ryan
12/08/06  07:09pm

 #1088389


SHvar
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   Message To: KRoCc   In reference to Message Id: 1086735


 There are a few, but they are in the same general species to do so.

Albigs, all albigularis can be crossed (whitethroats, blackthroats). Goulds, argus, flavi, etc are crossed in captivity. Ackies are crossed, but keep in mind that crosses are worth little to almost all keepers that are looking for possible breeding projects.
Red ackies are worth alot more than the red/yellow crosses that have occured. albigularis crosses were harder to sell years ago to those who wanted blackthroats (after they are gone people look for them).
Flavi-argus-gouldi crosses are now worth far less than they were at one time.
Flavi-argus cross male, 4ft long, active lizard, eats like no tomorrow.


The lizard on top was a cape banded whitethroat, the lizard on the bottom was a blackthroat/cape banded whitethroat cross.


This is a blackthroat.


A different type of whitethroat.


A very dirty blackthroat/whitethroat/whitethroat cross female (yes thats a 65 lbs husky behind her for size reference.


I have pics of red ackies, no yellows though.
12/09/06  03:12am

 #1088402


Croc Attack
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   Message To: KRoCc   In reference to Message Id: 1087857


 I am an amstaff breeder

Well look at Poison Arrow Frogs, if you breed them in captivity they dont produce the toxins they do in the wild, im sure if you did the same with a komodo you would get the same effect
12/09/06  04:25am

 #1088485


Shay s
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   Message To: Croc Attack   In reference to Message Id: 1088402


 I am an amstaff breeder

In the early 90s, a reptile store in PA claimed to have bred and hatched salvadorii / salvator crosses. I believe there were 3 hatchlings, and a dead hatchling was sent to Mark Bayless’ house. I am sure he still had it when he passed.

After examining the hatchling I was skeptical of it being a cross as there was almost no difference between it and a normal salvator.

Reptile Guru has crossed subspecies of salvator: marmoratus X salvator, and the babies are gorgeous.

-John



12/09/06  09:42am

 #1088497


Lell
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   Message To: Shay s   In reference to Message Id: 1088485


 I am an amstaff breeder

Yeah they had pictures of one of them on Varanus.net, or MonitorSpot.com, but unfortunately the sites don’t seem to be working anymore. The baby looked more like a Salvator though
12/09/06  09:57am

 #1088734


SHvar
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   Message To: Shay s   In reference to Message Id: 1088485


 I remember when the claims to the ..

Croc/water cross happened.
I also remember when it was found out that the animal was nothing more than a dead imported water monitor baby. I dont remember who was the claimed producer of that animal though.
Croc monitors are closer related to the lace which is closest related to the komodo.
12/09/06  02:54pm

 #1088806


TheVirus
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   Message To: SHvar   In reference to Message Id: 1088734


 I remember when the claims to the ..

I don’t know if it’s the same breeder but about 8-10 years ago I used to go to Serpents Den in Matamoras, Pennsylvania (on the border of pa, NY) and the owner I think his name is Steve had what he claimed to be water/croc babies. He also sold pure water babies and they were a little different from the croc/water babies. The parents were not on the premises though so I didn’t see them. I heard he moved deeper in to Pa. and bred the crosses after that too.
12/09/06  03:43pm

 #1088812


TheVirus
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   Message To: TheVirus   In reference to Message Id: 1088806


 I remember when the claims to the ..

Actually might of been more like 10-12 years ago.
12/09/06  03:47pm

 #1088837


KRoCc
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   Message To: TheVirus   In reference to Message Id: 1088812


 I remember when the claims to the ..

Any known sav crosses?
12/09/06  04:08pm

 #1089252


SHvar
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   Message To: TheVirus   In reference to Message Id: 1088806


 No, he still owns it.

He told me 5 years ago that he never bred any monitors only snakes, so it was probably bull crap talking that got him into that situation. He directed me to Pro exotics for CBB monitors. He said any he has or can get are WC.
In fact I can tell you that the Serpents Den Rarely has ever had any monitors, they almost exclusively deal with snakes, venomous and non. The place in in Carbondale Plaza. Its amazing when you go on a search for real CBB monitors and you confront the "claimers" they suddenly direct you to someone who really deals with them, many businesses did that during one of my searches.
12/09/06  10:47pm

 #1089259


SHvar
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   Message To: KRoCc   In reference to Message Id: 1088837


 Bosc crosses, with what?

The closest 3 relatives to the bosc are much larger animals, and very different. There are no savannah crosses, no such thing. All of the closest species would eat them, they are Africas smallest species.
12/09/06  10:52pm

 #1089340


Field_Herper
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   Message To: SHvar   In reference to Message Id: 1089259


 Bosc crosses, with what?

I am definitely not trying to start an argument with you, but like I mentioned in my earlier post, I remember a post by Frank Retes about a bosc being bred with an argus (or something similar, I think). He said that they were like normal boscs, though. However, I could be wrong. I just think that I remember recently reading that on kingsnake.com. I also remember Frank mentioning that they don’t have to be very closely related. But, like I said, I could be mistaken.

Ryan
12/09/06  11:57pm

 #1089427


KRoCc
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   Message To: Field_Herper   In reference to Message Id: 1089340


 Just a question....

I know there africas smallest species but I thought a bosc cross will be possible some way some how..but its cool no biggie
12/10/06  01:23am

 #1089464


SHvar
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   Message To: Field_Herper   In reference to Message Id: 1089340


 No the cross FR talked about was a..

Argus with flavi, argus with gouldi, argus with Mertens, etc, all the same or close in complex.
Thats a funny accusation, FR would rip you a new one for that, a bosc/argus cross, hahaha...
No, they cannot cross, they are closest genetically to the nile, ornatus, albigularis, and all are closer to each other than to the bosc. They are food for the others in Africa when found together.
12/10/06  03:21am

 #1090579


Field_Herper
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   Message To: SHvar   In reference to Message Id: 1089464


 No the cross FR talked about was a..

Sorry, I probably dreamt or imagined that one. I just seemed to remember something about that. If I didn’t make it up, and find the post again, I will be sure to direct you guys to it. But, I am sure that I was lying on accident.

But, as far as them having to be closely related, I wouldn’t think that they would be. Just look at king-corn snakes. They aren’t even in the same genus. Of course, they usually have to do something to "trick" them into breeding. But, I would think that it is possible for similar-sized monitors to breed, even if they aren’t that closely related. But, this is just a thought. I have no research or proof to back this up. Just an opinion...

Ryan
12/10/06  11:32pm

 #1090611


SHvar
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   Message To: Field_Herper   In reference to Message Id: 1090579


 Monitors were the first reptiles supposedly to be classified by genetics.

The entire mass of them.
Snakes have many many members, you will probably see many genus changes as that happens, also many species being reclassified once that occurs.
Monitors fall into groups such as the African species fall under polydaedalus, these are related the closest and evolved from each other or a similar/same ancestor. Argus are under the group called varanus. They are not compatible because they are the same genus alone.
I hope this helps you. Some within each group or family cannot cross either, it comes down to being closer than just being in the same groups also. Among Africans the nile and ornatus can cross, beyond that I dont think any others have the ability to for many reasons.

http://www.varanus.nl/family.shtml
12/10/06  11:59pm

 #1090623


Field_Herper
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   Message To: SHvar   In reference to Message Id: 1090611


 Monitors were the first reptiles supposedly to be classified by genetics.

I understand very little about taxonomy or genetics, so I have very little to back what I said up. Those groups you mentioned are the sub-genuses, aren’t they? Like Odatria?

Anyway, there is a new post where Frank mentions the bosc/argus cross. He said that the hatchlings died, though.

Ryan
12/11/06  12:09am

 #1090627


KRoCc
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   Message To: Field_Herper   In reference to Message Id: 1090623


 Monitors were the first reptiles supposedly to be classified by genetics.

a bosc argus cross


i wont believe it until i see it....
12/11/06  12:11am

 #1090636


SHvar
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   Message To: Field_Herper   In reference to Message Id: 1090623


 I know what post you refer to.

They were claimed to exist by someone he knew, not proved.
They said to him that they all died and were disposed of, when he asked for a dead hatchling to prove it. Typical, just like the other magic reptile crosses that never happened. I have talked with him about that over the years on the forums.
12/11/06  12:27am
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