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#2275064 Dillonh24 View Profile	Komodo v.s Human Do Komodo Dragons kill with their "venom" or is it more of an onset of infection caused by the anticoagulant bacteria in their mouths? Because I have watched numerous shows/ tons of research on the Komodo Dragons and for them to kill any "large" animal it takes numerous days and numerous bites to the animal for it to eventually weaken enough to finally kill the animal. I am having a discussion with others on Varanid "venom" and would like to hear what you guys have to say. I know Varanids produce a protein like enzyme in a gland in their lower jaw but should this be actually classifed as "venom" and do they actually kill with this "venom"? Also does this pose any threat to people other than anaphylaxis and infection? People are talking about how we classify stuff as venomous and that we should handle it with care but I said "but people ignore many venomous things like Bearded Dragons and Bees unless you are allergic to them because the venom poses no threat other than anaphylaxis".
07/31/12  03:39pm
#2275065 Krusty View Profile	Message To: Dillonh24   In reference to Message Id: 2275064  Komodo v.s Human The anticoagulant (blood thinner) properties of the saliva modified glands causes SMALLER PREY to go hypovolemic (blood pressure bottoms out to unconsciousness) and they bleed longer. This allows for a faster more efficient kill. Whether this developed to pre-digest or to hurry up and swallow the prey faster before competing dragons come by to steal or whatever it’s evolutionary role, I’m not certain. But I don’t exactly call it a true "venom" where it’s toxic systemic effects are designed to immobilize, digest, or neurotoxically paralyze a prey item like in a pit viper snake. I’m sure it has NOT been tested if the typical amounts delivered in a bite on a large human, or ox, would be enough by itself to take a big animal down. The old bacterial toxin thing with Komodos (as they are often seen feeding on a dead ox/water buffalo type animal in a mass feeding frenzy on NatGeo) is not really related to the modified jaw glands. The mouths of dragons feeding on festering carcasses certainly would be "dirtier" and can be pathogenic to the bitten, but it’s been overplayed IMO to the media. People in zoos have been nipped by captive Komodos fed on clean, fresh prey and the biggest deal is the physical damage the teeth do. Remember Sharon Stone’s husband’s white socked foot in the cage deal?....... I think Dragons kill smaller prey with sheer biting and size, a bit aided by the digestive enzymes on a good long, chewing bite and hold. I think the big ox are repeatedly nipped but kick and get away and mamed by ankle bites and drought with those types of animals (much like horses) spells colic and death to them if they can’t keep moving and grazing. Once dead and stinky for miles, the dragons opportunistically feed on them. I hope David (Crocdoc) would correct or add to this as he’s actually been there and studied them a bit. I’ve just read a lot on it all for some years. :)
07/31/12  04:09pm
#2275090 Dillonh24 View Profile	Message To: Krusty   In reference to Message Id: 2275065  Komodo v.s Human Okay well thanks again Justin for the response. Me and some others are trying to debate whether a dragon’s bite is truely "venomous" or whether it along with other bacteria in the mouth are what cause the animals to die. I don’t see it as truely "venomous" because my definition of venomous is something that will harm you with a bite. Again, I think monitors in general although they are classified as "venomous" I myself don’t see it that way because the worst part of a monitor bite is the bite itself, not the "venom" put into the wound. With Komodos and large prey though it does take numerous days and numerous bites from the Komodo to actually bring down the large animal. I had mentioned though that a lot of the prey that Komodos bring down with these bites are usually due to infection in the wounds where as humans would be able to sterilize the wound and prevent sepsis. What I don’t understand though, One person is trying to state whether it is truely venomous or not but I mentioned that bearded dragons are "venomous" and yet they are sold by the thousands each year as a "beginner" lizard because of the minimal effect the venom has on a human, same with bees. The only concern there is whether or not you are allergic to the venom or not. Like we totally blow off many "venomous" species because they are relatively harmless to humans as long as you are not allergic but it seems he is trying to pick a fight over Komodos because of their large stature and peoples fear of such a large and potentially dangerous animal even though it has been noted by many zoos that the Komodo is one of the more "tolerant" and as some would put it "affectionate" of the monitor species.
07/31/12  08:18pm
#2275091 Dillonh24 View Profile	Message To: Dillonh24   In reference to Message Id: 2275090  Komodo v.s Human Like my main question is whether or not it is the actual venom that they produce that causes death or if it is more so based off of infection in the wounds...
07/31/12  08:20pm
#2275097 Norf View Profile	Message To: Dillonh24   In reference to Message Id: 2275091  Komodo v.s Human I think death is most likely caused by the anticoagulant blood thinner in the saliva. The larger prey items bleed out and faint before an infection, or venom, spreads. More likely than not the lizard begins to eat off of large prey before the animal is actually dead.
07/31/12  08:48pm
#2275099 Norf View Profile	Message To: Norf   In reference to Message Id: 2275097  Komodo v.s Human Quote: Once dead and stinky for miles, the dragons opportunistically feed on them. Or this sounds pretty probable too.
07/31/12  08:52pm
#2275125 Krusty View Profile	Message To: Norf   In reference to Message Id: 2275099  Komodo v.s Human What you guys are NOT seeing is the Komodo eating dead fish on the beaches, smaller mammals, birds, eggs and the ’normal’ stuff consumed quickly. You are mezmorized by the NatGeo footage of mass feeding groups on a dead buffalo. I doubt the big prey are as commonly fed on as the day to day stuff easily taken down. I think brute size and power w teeth trumps ’venom’ or ’septic’ bites, just like other Monitors.
07/31/12  11:27pm
#2275130 Dillonh24 View Profile	Message To: Krusty   In reference to Message Id: 2275125  Komodo v.s Human Thanks Norf for your take on things.. Yeah Justin, I am just as interested in the day to day stuff but what we are discussing is about the large prey items. They are saying that it is all the venom, it has nothing to do with infection, nothing to do with the bacteria in the mouth just purely venom. Which I disagree with. I am sure that without the bacteria in it’s mouth the venom wouldn’t work as quickly and would take twice as long to finally kill an animal or even longer if the wound didn’t get infected from the bacteria in the mouth. I certainly hope Dave can jump in at some point and help answer some stuff.
08/01/12  12:12am
#2275133 Crocdoc View Profile	Message To: Dillonh24   In reference to Message Id: 2275130  Komodo v.s Human Quote: I don’t see it as truely "venomous" because my definition of venomous is something that will harm you with a bite. Does it depend on who ’you’ is, in that sentence? For example, all spiders are venomous, regardless of whether or not they are dangerous to humans. Tiny spiders, even though their bites would not harm you or me, are still venomous. What Bryan Fry discovered is that Komodo dragons have a gland which produces a substance that acts as an anti-coagulant, so when an animal is bitten (particularly a small one) it goes into shock pretty quickly, making it easier to subdue. He’s a toxicologist, so if he thinks it’s a venom I’d personally take his word for it because I’m definitely not a toxicologist. When I visited Komodo National Park, one of the places we went to is the waterhole that almost every documentary maker visits when doing a program on Komodo. The waterhole itself isn’t on Komodo, but on a neighbouring island called Rinja (often spelled Rinca or Rintja as well), as the dragons are found on six islands. The waterhole is famous because there are always water buffalo wallowing in there and if you’re going to see a dragon attacking a water buffalo, it will be in that waterhole. Although we didn’t see any bites in action, almost every buffalo there had an injury, or injuries, inflicted by dragons. The bites were almost always to the hind legs and scrotum, with only one to the side of a buffalo, and I would guess it’s easiest for the dragons to approach the buffalo when they’re lying down in mud. When we returned to the same spot several days later, one of the buffalo that previously had a bite to the hind leg was healing (although the swelling on the leg suggested it was infected), whereas one of the other buffalo looked to be on death’s door. Unfortunately we were leaving a day later so I didn’t end up seeing the outcome. That one buffalo was clearly healing was interesting, as was the buffalo lying on its side breathing heavily, apparently on death’s door. Although it could have just been hot and tired. Also interesting was that, aside from the dragons lying around in the shade of the ranger station, we saw more dragons in the area near the waterhole than anywhere else out in the savannah. That could have been because they were waiting for a buffalo to die, but they could also have been there because of the waterhole itself, which probably makes more sense. Here’s the thing, though. Despite me going into detail about the buffalo wallow and most reports about dragons subduing prey with venom and/or bacteria concentrate on large prey like the buffalo, it’s important to keep in mind that the buffalo were introduced to the islands and were probably not around when the dragons evolved. Justin (Krusty) nailed it: Quote: What you guys are NOT seeing is the Komodo eating dead fish on the beaches, smaller mammals, birds, eggs and the ’normal’ stuff consumed quickly. You are mezmorized by the NatGeo footage of mass feeding groups on a dead buffalo. With the exception of the dwarf elephants once found on Flores, most of the dragons’ prey consists of animals significantly smaller than buffalo. There’s a local race of the wild boar (although, again, probably introduced to these islands even though they are native to other south-east Asian islands), Timor deer, green junglefowl, orange-footed scrubfowl, long-tailed macaque. All of these would succumb to a venom that induces blood flow (combined with really horrific wounds) and bacterial infection would just be redundant because the animal would be long consumed by the time the infection kicked in. The other problem with the bacterial infection idea, aside from the buffalo not being native to that area, is that dragons would rarely benefit from their own actions so the ’intentional’ (i.e. selected for) development of lethal bacteria would be a very tricky thing to happen on an evolutionary scale. One dragon bites the buffalo and then a few days later, when it dies, other dragons eat the carcass. One could say that these acts of apparent altruism eventually aid the original biter (as long as other dragons are also evolving mouth bacteria so that it, too, benefits when they make the effort and bite something big), but I’m not convinced the mouth bacteria is anything but incidental.
08/01/12  01:46am
#2275134 Dillonh24 View Profile	Message To: Crocdoc   In reference to Message Id: 2275133  Komodo v.s Human Thank you Dave for your contribution to this topic. It was an interesting read for sure. You certainly do raise an interesting point on the mouth bacteria though...
08/01/12  02:32am
#2275144 Daryl- View Profile	Message To: Crocdoc   In reference to Message Id: 2275133  Komodo v.s Human Unfortunately, i can’t add to this discussion, but i would just like to thank Dave for that great read - it was extremely insightful and fantastic that you saw it first hand... did you take many pictures at all? Cheers Daryl
08/01/12  08:06am
#2275206 Crocdoc View Profile	Message To: Daryl-   In reference to Message Id: 2275144  Komodo v.s Human Quote: ...did you take many pictures at all? Oh, did I WHAT! Lol. I almost killed myself lugging around a huge backpack full of kilograms of camera gear, both still and video, as well as a tripod.
08/01/12  06:17pm
#2275222 Milkweed666 View Profile	Message To: Crocdoc   In reference to Message Id: 2275206  Komodo v.s Human Crocdoc, how does a person get in to studying monitors/dragons in the field? Do u just get a passport and go? Sorry if this sounds like a stupid question. But I would love to do something like that atleast once in my lifetime.
08/01/12  09:14pm
#2275267 Crocdoc View Profile	Message To: Milkweed666   In reference to Message Id: 2275222  Komodo v.s Human I’ve studied crocodiles professionally, but any time I spend with monitors (including the dragons) in the field is part of my hobby. If you want to visit Komodo, then yes, it’s simply a matter of getting a passport and getting yourself there. If done properly, it needn’t be an expensive holiday - find a budget holiday airfare to Bali (definitely cheaper from Australia than North America, as Bali is to us what Hawaii/Mexico are to you in regards to popular holiday destinations) and that’s the most expensive part of the holiday taken care of. From there it’s a short, inexpensive flight to Flores and from Flores you can get a boat and crew for next to nothing. While on the islands you need a ranger with you at all times, but even that ends up being relatively inexpensive.
08/02/12  01:33am

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