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 #1953426


Jeremi
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 My Snakes arent too happy. Help?

My two snakes are not too happy with one and other. The flinch every time the other touches it.
Seth, my first, hasnt had contact with another snake in more than a year. He is vary social with people but Not Lilly. He is a blonde Trans Pecos rat snake.
Lilly, my new one, I have had for about a week. She seems to be ok with him unless he flinches first. She is a Baird’s rat snake about half Seths size.

I just want to make the transition easier. any ideas?
02/15/09  09:53pm

 #1953555


JackAsp
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   Message To: Jeremi   In reference to Message Id: 1953426


 My Snakes arent too happy. Help?

Seperate cages. If you want two animals that are friends, get gerbils.
02/16/09  08:14am

 #1953738


Jeremi
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   Message To: JackAsp   In reference to Message Id: 1953555


 My Snakes arent too happy. Help?

Ratsnakes of most any type will get along. Corn snakes included. Snakes, as you well know, Can indeed be friendly as proven by Seths afections toward me. Snakes in the wild comonly group together under rocks and often are found with other types. So please, any thing that can help?

Thank you.
02/16/09  02:28pm

 #1953879


Reptilefreak23
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   Message To: Jeremi   In reference to Message Id: 1953738


 My Snakes arent too happy. Help?

But they can choose to get out from under the rocks, they can’t choose to get out of a cage.

But yes, he is right, unless breeding, should never be kept together. There are a page full of reasons that they should be separated. Snakes can be affectionate toward humans, or not towards humans, its the same way with snakes and snakes.

If there is anything else you need to get help on, feel free to p.m. me or post back here.
Good Luck with your snakes!



02/16/09  05:49pm

 #1953881


Reptilefreak23
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   Message To: Reptilefreak23   In reference to Message Id: 1953879


 My Snakes arent too happy. Help?

Oh yes, and as for a transition, I really don’t think that you can transition them slowly to one another considering they have already been introduced.



02/16/09  05:52pm

 #1954031


JackAsp
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   Message To: Reptilefreak23   In reference to Message Id: 1953881


 My Snakes arent too happy. Help?

Some snakes are more tolerant of each other than others. But yours aren’t like that. Plus, one is twice the size of the other. These are both problems. Even if the first problem magically changes tomorrow, the second one. A big snake can bully a little snake easily, without even trying to, just by running it over and pushing it out of the way whenever it moves.

You want a slower transition? Buy a second cage. Give them playdates in neutral territory. Then, someday, when they’re both the same size, get an even bigger cage, and maybe it’ll work then.

You want a slow transition without having to provide two cages? In that case, my answer is this: Buy a second cage. Give them playdates in neutral territory. Then, someday, when they’re both the same size, get an even bigger cage, and maybe it’ll work then.

You may have noticed that the non-stressful way to try this experiment is exactly the same regardless of whether you want to get the second cage or not. Thbat’s because you etting a second cage does not stress them. You NOT doing so does. I get that you’ve seen multiple snakes caged together. In fact, I’ve DONE it. The female thrived; the male ate decently, but not completely dependably. Interestingly, after I lost the female, who was the larger and more dominant of the two, to cancer, the male =become much bolder, and even developed such an enthusiastic feeding response I was FINALLY, after over eioght years, able to switch him over to f/t. So even though they both seemed unstressed when housed together, and even displayed what appeared to be social behavior, at least one of them was even LESS stressed when housed alone.

It’s not their fault that they don’t want to prove your hypothesis that snakes like to spend 24 hours a day in packs. You’re not the first one to try this, and you’re not the first one not to have it go as well as others.
02/16/09  08:50pm

 #1954045


JackAsp
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   Message To: JackAsp   In reference to Message Id: 1954031


 My Snakes arent too happy. Help?

And you know what? there’s some other prolems too.

For one, Trans-Pecos rat snakes like very, very low humidty. Many keepers don’t even keep a water dish in there all day; they just offer water for about an hour then take it out, because they want the humidty as low as possible. Baird’s rat’s like it around 50-60 per cent, and still somtimes soak even when the humidity is good.

For another, mating does sometimes occur even without brumation. And a male will mate with a female as soon as she’s fertile, even if she’s not big enough yet to lay eggs as safely as if she were a bit larger. Males can breed fine at two years, and females are also fertile at two years, but they’re bigger and therefore better equipped to handle the process at three years. This is assuming normal growth rates, it’s more about size than age, but my point is that her biochemical signals will be ready before her physique is. Housing an adult male with an immature female means that as soon as she hits puberty, he’s going to be right there. It’ll be like housing a junior high girl with a fullgrown man who has never seen a woman, and giving her no place she can possibly get away from him. And the eggs are the same size anyway, so the younger/ smaller she is the more complications she’ll be risking. Think this might cause a little more stress than seperate tanks?

Finally, when snakes are housed together 24/7, their pheremones make their shed cycles more and more in sync. That either means the older one ends up shedding more often than he should, or that the younger one sheds less. Or both. Sometimes it even happens if the cages are just NEAR each other. I had trouble with a baby bullsnake making his next-door neighbor, a two-year-old Madagascan hognose, go blue/stop eating too often because the enclosures were too close.

I know of people who endorse housing adult pairs of the same species together, but you’re doing EVERYTHING wrong. Different ranges, different habitats, different sizes, different ages... the only thing they have in common is that they both dislike the arrangement enough that you’re asking for advice about it. So, since telling the SNAKES they’re wrong isn’t really going to help you any, becasue I doubt they read this forum very often, the only thing that’s left is lecturing the owner.
02/16/09  09:13pm

 #1954050


JackAsp
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   Message To: JackAsp   In reference to Message Id: 1954045


 My Snakes arent too happy. Help?

Well, OK, same range, pretty much, but still different microhabitats. I was ranting faster than I was thinking, but you get the gist of it.
02/16/09  09:18pm

 #1954433


Jeremi
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   Message To: JackAsp   In reference to Message Id: 1954050


 My Snakes arent too happy. Help?

Its never what you say but how you say it. Remember this.

That being said I should reiterate a few points.

Point 1: I am here for SECOND opinions. What you say does matter to me but this is only in addition to what my Reptile Guy says. I trust his experience over all others but he can not be bothered all the time so I come here for HELP, not over eager critical views.

Point 2: My mother has a saying. "You’re closer to the situation that I am so you know better than I do." It means that she knows to trust my judgment and that her opinion is only asked as a reflection point and as a safe form of communication that doesn’t involve her being overly critical.

And point 3: I don’t come here for your amusement. This is just an easy way for me to ask PLEASANT advice at work in my down time.

So to the people attempting to help me, thank you. To all others, your words fall on def ears because of the WAY YOU SAY THEM. So all that being said, here is the situation.

Seth and Lilly are slowly getting along on their own now. At first they kept apart but now coil together in the little den I built for them. The larger one, Seth, does not bully her. Lilly often follows Seth around and the only times they ever had problems was when they touched one and other, in which case they just shrugged the part of their body that was touched until the other slithered away.

On the topic of breading, I will take the size difference under advisement and talk to my guy and see what he says. The cage size is more than large enough. They have a large water dish that I change every morning and Lilly never soaks.

The reason she never soaks is because you are wrong. they do like dry environments and both types have been found in the same regions. I came here for advice on personal experience, not facts. I have google too.lol. j/k. So check again but don’t bother to tell me.

Reptilefreak23, thank you for your input.

JackAsp, Its not what you say but how you say it. I wanted help, not Asp-holes and if I get thrown off this sight it was still worth saying. I truly thank you for attempting to help in your own way. Like I said, I will take what you said under advisement.

They get better on their own it would seem and both are starting to be friendly with one and other with no signs of negative behavior toward one and other. I was looking for ideas like, treats or ideas like the second cage idea. I may actually try that one when I go to my Reptile Guy this week. I will also get a good idea of more of their behavior after the feeding this weekend.

So any thing else? cause I have just about given up on this web page (accept 4 Reptilefreak23). It seems like all the others. there is always one Know It All who wont back down or open their mind...
02/17/09  03:20pm

 #1954860


JackAsp
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   Message To: Jeremi   In reference to Message Id: 1954433


 My Snakes arent too happy. Help?

If your Baird’s is comfortable and not soaking, then the humidity is no doubt suficient for her, which means it’s probably higher than the TPRS should be breathing all the time. Not all snakes in dry habitats spend most of their hiding-time in equally dry places. No rat snakes seek out moister hides than other, related species? They just share the exact same niche, rather than adapting to make better use of the empty spots? And even though they can interbreed and produce fertile offspring, their populations in the same area still tend to stay genetically distinct?

A Baird’s is much closer to a black, yellow, grey, etc than it is to a Trans Pecos. With TPs, the big hurdle to keeping them was supposedly getting the humidity low enough, because they were very prone to lung problems.

Now for all I know there might have been some environmental rather than genetic reason for the captive humidity issue. Maybe the WC ones tended to carry something that stayed dormant unless moist enough, and it’s not even an issue with CB? But, don’t quote me on that last hypothesis, because I just made it up a second ago. Anybody here know what the deal is on that old "restricted water" rule?



02/18/09  01:39am

 #1955029


Jeremi
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   Message To: JackAsp   In reference to Message Id: 1954860


 My Snakes arent too happy. Help?

Thanks for the input. Ill copy it off and check in with my reptile guy on fri or sat and ask.

I am happy to report that I see them every morning coiled together now. Its sweet. Lilly, The bairds, seems to be doing better. I have a K’nex jungle gym set up for the two of them that she likes to play on now.

Soon I am going to be getting some new temp readers and so on. Its about time I replaced all my stuff for safety and health. Its been about 6 months. Do you know any thing about snake training? I am experimenting with the idea on Seth because of how sweet he is but I know little about possetive snake reinforcement. All I know is he likes licking faces and soft petting at the mid section. I know what he hates but I cant do negative reinforcement on my little guy.
02/18/09  12:20pm

 #1955045


Isabela
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   Message To: Jeremi   In reference to Message Id: 1955029


 My Snakes arent too happy. Help?

Quote:

I am happy to report that I see them every morning coiled together now.


And you see this as affection or them getting along? I see it as them both wanting the same hide spot at the same time for thermoregulating or security reasons and with no other options they are forced to share it.



02/18/09  12:43pm

 #1955100


Jeremi
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   Message To: Isabela   In reference to Message Id: 1955045


 My Snakes arent too happy. Help?

co existence. They have three hiding places to chose from and before the were getting along, they gladly used opposite hiding places. All three are on the cooler end of the cage so temp is not the issue. Two of the places are identical and the third is above one of the first two. You get a feel when you bond with each pet. Lilly will some times seemingly seek out Seth and Seth (when coming across Lilly) takes notice and sits still for a moment or so before curling up under, over or around her. Lilly (in response) no longer shrugs. She becomes slightly alert, moves around in the coil and rests her head on his back.

I am no expert but if you could only see it your self, you would see that they have been growing on one and other.



02/18/09  02:36pm

 #1955749


JackAsp
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   Message To: Jeremi   In reference to Message Id: 1955100


 My Snakes arent too happy. Help?

I think I know whatr you’re seeing, because I’ve been there. To play devil’s advocate to your moter, sometimes we’re TOO close to the situation, therefore too emotional invested in whatever percentage of the data confirms our hypothesis. Hence, I always interpreted, cuddling, as meaning they preferred to. Since then, I’ve heard other hypotheses, such as that moving closer is how they mommunicate that they will not or can not afford to yield territory. I don’t know that’s the reason, any more than I knew that my snakes looking like they were on great terms with one another meant they were. But at the time, boy, did I think everything was going great!

In actuality, I don’t Callisto ever had any problems from living ith McBain. Fortuntely, the egg thing never happened, but knowing what I do now I would not risk that again with an immature female. McCain did noticeably better after Callisto’s death, though, so apparently he wasn’t as crazy about her as I’d always thought.

Seperate cages gives you the advantages of both privacy and interaction with other snakes. After all, nobody here’;s said you can never let them both out of their cages at the same time. ogether, though, there’s no choice. The other snake is always in there. it doesn’t go out hunting, it doesn’t go to school,it doesn’t hae a job... didn’t you ever have a roomate who absolutely never left the apartment? It gets old.

I know some training tricks for things like acclimation to handling or switching a picky eater over to dead prey items, but in snake-on-snake interaction it’s a matter of either them training each other to compromise on things that neither one probably really wants to, or just the dominant one training the weaker one. I think about all we can do is habitat conrol, feeding regimens, that sort of thing. Negative reinforcement certainly isn’t the answer. I don’t even use that for biting ME, except in the sense that if I ignore it and let them tire them,selves out getting no results that in and of itself is a form of negative reinorcement.

The closest thing to what you want that I’ve ever done was acclimating two cats that were on very unfriendly terms. I sat on the floor between them, sprinkld two lumps of catnip at arm’s length in different directions, and then once they were both doped up I go them both playing with different ends of a long bathrobe belt. I tired them out and left them on the floor near each other, and within a week they were playing with each other like kittens. But there’s about ten reasons that wouldn’t work with snakes.
02/19/09  02:35pm

 #1955799


Jeremi
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   Message To: JackAsp   In reference to Message Id: 1955749


 My Snakes arent too happy. Help?

Well, all signs of disdain are gone. No upset natures and they often coil together without problem. Too close doesn’t seem to be the problem. they are just fine now. I plan to re set the jungle gym next week and the feeding goes down tomorrow after I talk to my snake guy.

They are just fine. I know you think this is the same situation, however, there is no indication of a problem any more. Only took a week really. thanks though.
02/19/09  04:41pm

 #1958499


Stiletto
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   Message To: Jeremi   In reference to Message Id: 1955799


 My Snakes arent too happy. Help?

I keep all my snakes in separate enclosures.. I wouldn’t tell you how to keep yours, however, I will express surprise that you don’t observe a one to three month quarantine period before putting them in the same room, much less the same enclosure. Doesn’t your reptile/snake guy recommend this? My herp vet does.. I run fecal floats asap on all new snakes as well, to rule out internal parasites.
02/24/09  04:59pm

 #1965448


Jeremi
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   Message To: Stiletto   In reference to Message Id: 1958499


 My Snakes arent too happy. Help?

Nope. They had a check up with my snake just a week prior. Neither one has an illness. Nothing personal but I dont feel need to check PH balance for my snakes. Its not that I dont care but believe it or not there are issues with those sorts of things in my faith.

Reguardless, I am happy to report that the first feeding went well and there are no problems with my snakes. Both are vary happy and neither one showes signs of stress.

Thanks every one.
03/09/09  11:02am


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