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Nimber View Profile |
Help!! Sick Frogs!! Vets aren’t helping!
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| 03/14/07 12:12am |
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Greentreefroglover View Profile |
Message To: Nimber In reference to Message Id: 1208523 Help!! Sick Frogs!! Vets aren’t helping!
1 what is your temp and humidity? 2 What have you got in your tank? 3 What are you feeding them? answer these few questions so people know also post a pic it might help. good luck keep us posted wont you. Natasha |
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| 03/14/07 04:14am |
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Nimber View Profile |
Message To: Greentreefroglover In reference to Message Id: 1208648 Help!! Sick Frogs!! Vets aren’t helping!
Nimber |
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| 03/14/07 12:38pm |
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FreddieTheFrog View Profile |
Message To: Nimber In reference to Message Id: 1208818 Help!! Sick Frogs!! Vets aren’t helping!
I hope your frogs are better soon! |
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| 03/14/07 03:09pm |
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Nimber View Profile |
Message To: FreddieTheFrog In reference to Message Id: 1208942
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| 03/14/07 05:04pm |
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FreddieTheFrog View Profile |
Message To: Nimber In reference to Message Id: 1209076 Help!! Sick Frogs!! Vets aren’t helping!
I read that frogs can go for quite a while without eating - I read up to a month - as long as they have water and correct setup. If they are eating their shed, that may be providing some nutrients of some sort, too. I heard that force feeding is rather hard on the froggies, and that you should save it as a very last resort. You can buy something called Electrodize (around $9 here) that has vitamin D3, etc., in it, and you can put that in the water you spritz the tank with or in their water dish. It boosts their appetite and also gives them the vitamins they need while they are not eating. I don’t know, but I think I would try the Melafix and the Electrodize, if you can afford to pick those things up, and maybe hold off on the force feeding for a day or two and see if those work before doing that again. Since your frogs are a few years old, you probably only feed them a couple times a week anyway, so I think it would be okay to do so. (There is an Electrodize and Electrolize, and the Electrodize has the D3 in it. I believe that’s the only difference between the two, and either one would be helpful, I’m sure.) Just so you know, I am merely repeating instructions that I received here on the forum when my frogs were sick, and most of the advice came from Hoppy, who is very knowledgeable and well respected here. I’ve found that the vets often times do not know as much about frogs’ care as other frog owners do, and there is a lot of excellent advice given here at this forum. Good luck to you - keep us updated! |
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| 03/14/07 07:59pm |
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Nimber View Profile |
Message To: FreddieTheFrog In reference to Message Id: 1209281
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| 03/14/07 08:34pm |
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Hoppy View Profile |
Message To: Nimber In reference to Message Id: 1209315 Help!! Sick Frogs!! Vets aren’t helping!
Can you please specify what the symptoms your frogs are experiencing.... I am under the understanding that this is thought to be impaction? I have seen many frogs get impacted on coconut fiber bedding especially with whites tree frogs that are being fed inside thier viv. Is this the case here? Is it one frog or two? Its unusual for two frogs to be impacted spontaneously expecially after being in captivity for 3 years.... Baytril is commonly used after impaction is cleared as most frogs that get impacted an internal infection is forth coming... The mela fix is worth a try but the dips should be done for at least 5 minutes with impaction issues. If you believe this is indeed impaction....I would like you to try giving your frogs a couple drops of mineral oil. This is done by putting the drops on the lips and it should just wick in.... You must also remove the substrate and put the frogs on paper towel. Temps should remain high night and day in the 80-85f range even up to 90f....Drop humidity down to the 30 to 40 range so the frogs will dip on thier own to help remove the obstruction. Soaking helps them.... Do not feed if impaction is suspected.....NO FISH... nothing.... I can’t understand why a vet would suggest this...its not a normal part of a whites diet and it also introduces new parasites into their system. Water parasites are common including tape worms so this gives me concerns... For now it would help me if you update me daily on how the dips go and any changes but also please confirm their symptoms so I can verify impaction is the case here... Please specify for me the following: Last bowel movement? Smell to the movement or in the viv? Food that has been given and last time fed: ( I know fish..qty? and type please)... symptoms experiencing... Vets advice and meds.... I am not a vet but I do research the health and husbandry of amphibians.. I can’t promise that what I will reccomend will work and sometimes can be controvercial.... But I can tell you that anything I do reccomend for you to try I have personal experience with or have been working with other members frogs to try..... In each case I will tell you the known and unknown... Mela Fix is completely natural and can do no harm when used exactly as I have written on forum here. It has been very successful if used in early stages of illness. Its tee tree oil based so does act as a laxative at times with some frogs... Your frogs while being dipped my shed more..this is good and normal, they are ridding toxins... Most enjoy the dips. *Thanks Freddie and Greentreefroglover for your help and advice*...... HOPPY |
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| 03/14/07 10:18pm |
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Nimber View Profile |
Message To: Hoppy In reference to Message Id: 1209432 Help!! Sick Frogs!! Vets aren’t helping!
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| 03/14/07 11:42pm |
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Nimber View Profile |
Message To: Nimber In reference to Message Id: 1209535 Help!! Sick Frogs!! Vets aren’t helping!
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| 03/15/07 02:38am |
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Nimber View Profile |
Message To: Nimber In reference to Message Id: 1209693 Help!! Sick Frogs!! Vets aren’t helping!
these are my guys and their home any help will be greatly appreciated! |
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| 03/15/07 02:54am |
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Hoppy View Profile |
Message To: Nimber In reference to Message Id: 1209695 Help!! Sick Frogs!! Vets aren’t helping!
First the liquid from the rear is a stress reaction... When they release water which is what that is, its to allow lighter movement to jump away from a predator. Its normal but the frog should be placed near water as soon as possible so he can replenish...This moisture is so tree frogs don’t get dehydrated. It also tells me your frog in retaining fluid correctly to stop dehydration.. Moss is known for impaction on whites.... If moss is used it must be planted and rooted and short type.. I suggest in areas where they don’t hunt... NO food!....You must not feed them anything while being treated for impaction. Impaction occurs as the frogs cannot digest what is in their system. Adding more food will only add fuel to the fire. They are fine with nothing for a week or two. Many wild frogs go for up to 6 months with no food so appetite is not the issue it only tells me there state of mind or body. Force feeding an impacted frog will do nothing but cause more harm. So I’m going to go out on a limb here and say not to do this further..It is up to you to make a choice between vet and the information I give you. I can only say that most vets don’t know frogs very well as most do not deal with them on a regular basis. I am always glad to work with any vets for medications etc that I feel or they feel is warranted and say why.. I have nothing to hide only pure research to help your vet help you or vice versa...In these situations I give you reason as to why this should be done or not and what meds may help... Frogs are usually only force fed when a loss of appetite is due to a massive parasite infection or to boost a frog that has not eaten is months.... 6 weeks is the earliest to force feed a frog of any sort... The undue stress of force feeding will add to your frogs stress levels thats why they will release the water from the back you have witnessed... It will also cause stess which will cause more illness to unfold. Force feeding should be avoided when possible... Any frogs that have been impacted on loose substrate should not be placed back on any type unless solid. Once a frog has been impacted they will eventually do it again with a new type. So please remove the eco earth and solely use a fairly thick layer of paper towel. I am presuming you usually feed in the viv? Can you feed in outside feeding containers so we can monitor both frogs? Though you won’t be giving them anything at the moment. I use icecream containers 2lte. for feedings with 5 crickets offered to each with a plate on top. As these are full grown frogs they should only be fed 5 crickets each offered two or 3 times a week...one feeding dusted with vitamin powder.. Insure each has there own container... Antibiotics are not harmful but are not warranted at this time if impaction remains. In the most part a dip like mela fix is a natural antibiotic but it depends if we can move the impaction first. Then an antibiotic is advised. The shedding is normal for a healthy frog and a sick frog. Frogs constantly shed their skin like snakes and they do ingest it.. all normal they don’t get impacted on this. When ill or taking meds they shed more due to trying to remove the toxins in the body including the meds...This is natures way of protecting the frog with some nutrition also. This is all expected. When healthy frogs shed as they grow and they also do it to renew in seasonal and breeding changes etc.... Some will stay hidden during this process others right in front of you...looks like convulsing... It can be alarming to new owners or viewing for the first time.. Whenever using meds they must be started and fully completed to be successful..no stopping. This is so you do not weaken the benefits of using each drug. Right now I only want you to use mela fix and the mineral oil Ok? We will discuss baytril if needed if infection is showing.... Temps must be high...85 to 90f..24hrs.... Its vital humidity be dropped to 30% to 40% so pathegons cannot reinfect your frogs and they dip... Do not put electrodize in the water please...this is meant for misting and only so much electrodize should be absorbed...misting is the best way to insure no kidney damage is done. If they were dehydrated I may reccomend this method but I do not see that here at present. Do not use this product for now as the kidneys will have enough to compensate with the mela fix and the mineral oil and impaction for time being... You may need this product at a later date though... Can you tell me why they were treated for parasites? Was their stools watery and odour? What parasitic med was used? Did you want to continue treating them with me?..If so please follow directions in detail....vital for me to know exactly what is going on ok? I check in daily or sometimes more to keep an eye on sick amphibians.... HOPPY |
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| 03/15/07 10:57am |
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Nimber View Profile |
Message To: Hoppy In reference to Message Id: 1209887 Help!! Sick Frogs!! Vets aren’t helping!
When ever I have tried to feed them in different containers they wont eat. Sometimes Mak will but never Gollum.The first vet dewormed them with ivermectin a wide range dewormer he said as a "precation".I only give 1 dose to each and talked to vet #2 and he said not to deworm frogs ever.Their poo was normal at this time.(2 weeks ago) I have not seen any signs of poo since. We had decided to put Gollum back in the main cage and leave them be for a couple of days,when my husband found this site.How much mineral oil should i use and how often.Also what does it mean when they balloon out their throat.I had already put the electrodize in the water last night I saw Mak soaking Gollum was hiding so I dont know if he soaked if this bad?Gollum hiding is the first sign of his normal behavior in 2 weeks.Should I give them a break for a couple of days before doing anything eles?Thank you again and what ever you tell me will be done. |
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| 03/15/07 12:10pm |
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Kezz View Profile |
Message To: Nimber In reference to Message Id: 1209942
 the other frog ended up bloating out with water inside and it was wierd and horrid to see, this one also died she had kept them on soil and moss, and the water was full of poo and black , she probly used tap water coz she never mentioned to me bout using a conditioner. it was sad to see these guys suffer i was gutted. well i just had to get 2 more and they are living it large , they are so healthy and i love them. moss is ment to be very bad as if can give of a ph substance that burns the skin. good luck i wish you all the best with them xxxx |
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| 03/15/07 12:40pm |
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Nimber View Profile |
Message To: Nimber In reference to Message Id: 1209942 Help!! Sick Frogs!! Vets aren’t helping!
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| 03/15/07 12:44pm |
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FreddieTheFrog View Profile |
Message To: Nimber In reference to Message Id: 1209968 Help!! Sick Frogs!! Vets aren’t helping!
Also, just as with humans, when your bowels are impacted, it means nothing is passing .. therefore, it was just common sense to me that adding further food would just add further waste and cause MORE buildup. That’s like telling you to drink prune juice when you have diarrhea - huh?? lol Even though the fish have oil, I felt there had to be more effective ways to administer the oil without adding to the waste, just in case it didn’t work as planned. It was really gnawing at me, and I was afraid for the froggies, which is why I spoke up .. I knew you’d be along shortly to expound on it and right any wrongs, Hoppy. I also know it can be frustrating waiting for advice and worrying that each passing minute could be crucial, so I thought that at the very least, she could get some Melafix in the meantime - I figured it is good to have it on hand, even if it ended up not necessarily being indicated this time around, so it couldn’t hurt. Nimber, I do hope your frogs improve. They are really cute! I know how stressful it can be when they are ill, as I’ve been through a little of that. I really hope they pull through for you. Glad to hear that one is hiding and putting up a fuss. I hope that’s a sign that he’s on the road to recovery.  |
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| 03/15/07 02:15pm |
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Nimber View Profile |
Message To: FreddieTheFrog In reference to Message Id: 1210053
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| 03/15/07 03:02pm |
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Nimber View Profile |
Message To: Nimber In reference to Message Id: 1210102
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| 03/15/07 03:19pm |
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FreddieTheFrog View Profile |
Message To: Nimber In reference to Message Id: 1210133 Help!! Sick Frogs!! Vets aren’t helping!
Is Gollum the one sitting on top? They both look pretty good size wise, from what I can see, anyway. Our one WTF was so sick that you could actually see his bones sticking out of his back. I was very tempted at that point to try to feed him myself, but I held back. It’s just that natural motherly instinct in us to want to see them eat, I guess! Are they usually brownish in color, or is that just since they’ve been sick? I don’t remember if you said.. It’s a pretty shade of brown, very much like my white-lipped tree frog, whom we call Fudge because he looks like a fudgesicle. Good luck to you! |
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| 03/15/07 04:52pm |
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Nimber View Profile |
Message To: FreddieTheFrog In reference to Message Id: 1210258 Help!! Sick Frogs!! Vets aren’t helping!
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| 03/15/07 05:29pm |
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Hoppy View Profile |
Message To: Nimber In reference to Message Id: 1210306 Help!! Sick Frogs!! Vets aren’t helping!
You did a great job.... I hope it came across that way from me.. I need members to help others too. I only did a quick read of the post....I’m ill myself right now..... flu crap..... Your advice was all good... I change things as I go along as you know even on my own advice depending on frogs reactions etc... So I thank you and please continue to pitch in I need 2nd and 3rd etc opinions always .............. You never did anything wrong and I’m sure appreciated by all... :) NImber: The tank looks good... So there was a bowel movement 2 weeks ago but nothing since..... Ok thats not alot of time per say but we’ll continue this way for a bit to see if more of a proper bowel movement happens... Can you confirm for me the conditions of symptoms that took you the vets in the first place? I’m wondering why impaction was brought to light and or parasite meds were warranted by the vet.... I never pass judgement as they have reasons to do certain things. so I want to confirm these actions in my own mind.... Where the frogs eating? No bowel movements? lethargic? types of foods being fed? The dip is the tooth pik dipped in mela then dipped in water then mela then dipped water again. There should be just a slight odour to the water... Insure when dipping the frogs they are done seperately with fresh mela....NO cross contamination. Try to get 5 min dips going. These dips are done for a full 7 days like an antibiotic must be completed. Also try to do them at the same time each day if possible. The mineral oil is only two drops with an eye dropper just on the frogs mouth say just before doing the dip may help. Some members have used just their fingers if no dropper available but must be enough to seep inbetween the lips. This procedure should be done daily until results relized... Lets not feed them for a few days still...I want them hungry to see if they will eat in outside containers shortly. In this way its easy to see if one is well and one not... So no food. I know the mom guilt will happen but trust me I won’t let them starve....just a few days to start. We really need some action below first. Insure your light is over one side only not center. We need a temp gradient in the tank... Your temp guage should be up on the warm side about 3/4 the way up the glass and the humidity guage should be just below it say 1/2 way up on the glass... If I see in the tank correctly, you have the temp guage at the substrate...at the substate should be 75 to 80 with the higher temps. The guage that is there right now is a fish guage I believe. The fish type cannot read accurately dry temps... I would invest in two reptile type guages... I just use exo terra ones that stick in the viv with no issues and not expensive. But worth their weight in gold in these type of conditions... I want the top of viv temps at 85 to 90f...and humidity 30 to 40......no misting right now till I’m sure of the illness... The throat skin sounds like a male frog to me....You haven’t heard either croak? or they could be signs of shed due to the dips.... see what happens. Not a concern though so don’t worry... Can you confirm the legth of time you have had these frogs....Are they recently acquired? HOPPY |
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| 03/15/07 11:11pm |
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Nimber View Profile |
Message To: Hoppy In reference to Message Id: 1210708
We just got a new temp guage it is digital, it has temp and humidity in one.I have not stuck it to the cage i have been moving it around right now to make sure every thing is right in the cage it seems to be its staying around 85f and humidity is going between 30 and 50. I am trying to get it to stay lower but i live in alabama and it is very hot here right now so it hard. our house is staying pretty humid.I have not misted at all to day or last night. Should the temp be the same all over,i know usually one side should be lower but right now should this be the case? I hope you feel better,that is so awesome that you care so much that when you are sick you are still helping this little guys thank you so much!! |
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| 03/15/07 11:48pm |
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Nimber View Profile |
Message To: Nimber In reference to Message Id: 1210744 Help!! Sick Frogs!! Vets aren’t helping!
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| 03/16/07 02:11am |
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Hoppy View Profile |
Message To: Nimber In reference to Message Id: 1210828 Help!! Sick Frogs!! Vets aren’t helping!
Thanks for the update...and ah yes the pic of pooh..lol How do you spell relief..plop plop fizz........lol Hahaha! Sorry good meds for this flu ....lol Hahaha! The pooh texture could be the fish, mela fix, or mineral oil. Not alot there though so we’ll wait a bit further with more oil given etc... Continue with the mineral oil.... I want to clear out the fish if possible. Fish carry alot of parasites that tree frogs wouldn’t have exposure to so the quicker we can clear it the better. Then we’ll see if after a few days if both have cleared thier systems we’ll try a bit of food, crickets only. Keep an eye on smell..... this is a first signal of parasites. Whether from before or the fish.... I understand what the vet was thinking but mineral oil would of been a safer bet for your frogs with no chance of parasites being introduced. I think alot of vets think tree frogs eat fish..... I have seen a few posts on tapeworms.. These are common in aquatic frogs from fish but not tree frogs... As for the behavior prior to the vets visit. Frogs will change whether its season or maturity into doing odd things. It can be startling when a habit suddenly changes but not uncommon for them to do this. Because of the age of yours I can’t see either being male as I’m sure you would of heard them croaking long before now usually by 6 months of age you will hear full croaking in full sound.... Some tree frogs can get parasites from crickets etc or other food source. But for the most part in captivity its not usually an issue at the age of your frogs. Unless new food or move or other stress introduced into their living quarters. What foods do you normally feed them...Just crickets? vit. powder? This is fine.... I’m tyring to verify impaction.... When the one was acting abnormally being out in the day (which many tree frogs do once maturity sets in) were they still eating and hunting? Do you treat their water with drops? Anything new added to the tank? Are they presently quite active in the evenings, dipping ok? With the mela dips are they shedding after? Going to their water bowl right after the dips? Seem to like the dip? The throat blowing can be their warning or defense mechanism too...Some will puff up to scare away predators....some tree frogs will talk to their owners during this time too for comfort and trust...I would say if hes the scardy one normally its most likely the warning signal... Some will even make a bark sound... Bare with me if repeated questions are asked I’m confirming things in my mind to get a more accurate reason/picture and best cause of action if any should be taken... HOPPY |
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| 03/16/07 07:28am |
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Nimber View Profile |
Message To: Hoppy In reference to Message Id: 1210907 Help!! Sick Frogs!! Vets aren’t helping!
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| 03/16/07 10:59am |
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Hoppy View Profile |
Message To: Nimber In reference to Message Id: 1211078 Help!! Sick Frogs!! Vets aren’t helping!
OK.... Can you check with your water company and see if chloramine is added to your water. Only chlorine will evaporate when water is sitting out for a minimal of 24 hours. I prefer 48hrs.. Keep two bottles going so one is ready and one getting ready... Chloramine is a silent killer and can take time. It causes many issues internally as its toxic to amphibians and fish. Some cities have a web site for thier water system use and it says if chloramine is added. If it is added there is no choice but to put drops for it in the frogs water. Only good thing is you would of solved the issue with the frogs if this is the case... I can then give you a heads up on care from here... Your powder should be a full vitamin powder with D3 and calcium added....Some members buy two types for vits and calcium. I just use the all in ones. Don’t buy anything under brand name Fluker..too many issues on the quality.. The shedding when ill is very normal. If its the water issue it would make a lot of sense as they try to rid the toxins with chloramine... Anytime a frog is ill they shed to renew their body fluids and eat the shed to give strength...all normal. The mela will cause them to do this too as its a foreign to them. I wouldn’t remove any off them... If you think of it like a blister on us removing the skin can cause pain to us but mostly its the skin underneath not quite ready for it to be removed. So try to let them do this as its good for them to move all limbs and to intake the shed... The light sounds you hear are most likely stress sounds by the description you’ve given.... Nothing to be alarmed, some are more shy..I have one that is very shy and another that barks at people he doesn’t know. The other two are outgoing and would go home with anyone...lol They have personality plus and for each is special... Its up to us to learn each to understand them...but they are very intelligent so they know you are trying to help them... Let me know on the water..... HOPPY |
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| 03/16/07 11:25am |
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Nimber View Profile |
Message To: Hoppy In reference to Message Id: 1211091 Help!! Sick Frogs!! Vets aren’t helping!
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| 03/16/07 04:29pm |
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Hoppy View Profile |
Message To: Nimber In reference to Message Id: 1211397 Help!! Sick Frogs!! Vets aren’t helping!
The days of sitting water out are numbered.... Chloramine is cheaper, odourless, tasteless compared to the ways with chlorine.... What scares me most is actual envioronmental factors of this stuff when its returned back to nature...the only reason its not done already here is because of the envioronmentalists... At least when chlorine is returned it evaporates over a short period of time but chloramine will last forever...... Where I am Atlantic Canada we are only using chlorine but I’m sure not for much longer... I keep in touch with some fish farms with also a great concern to what will happen.... If chloramine is added you would need to buy conditioning water drops from the pet shop or walmart... Its not a big problem once you know its in water to condition its more the unknown factors. Its toxicity would be slow to make your frogs ill. It would depend on amount of water intake and soaks and overall health at time of exposure etc... It could take a long time others only a short time.. Different water way systems add different amounts to pure their water this plays part also.... Reptisafe or Aquasafe drops... If you buy the fish kind insure there is no coating added for fish skin or fins (it will say on bottle) as this is not healthy for amphibians..Reptile stuff is far superior.... Some that have the coating are stress coat, fin coat etc... The two listed Reptisafe and Aquasafe are the most common used with frogs.. HOPPY |
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| 03/16/07 04:47pm |
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Nimber View Profile |
Message To: Hoppy In reference to Message Id: 1211417 Help!! Sick Frogs!! Vets aren’t helping!
As far as the chloramine in the water here in birmingham alabama unfortunately we do not have to many environmentalists to help put a stop to things like that, but we also are at least 10 years behind everyone eles so they might not of even heard of chloramine. is there any damage control i can do if the frogs have come in contact with it? |
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| 03/16/07 05:04pm |
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Nimber View Profile |
Message To: Nimber In reference to Message Id: 1211436 Help!! Sick Frogs!! Vets aren’t helping!
i have been doing the soaks and the mineral oil as instructed.They are not comung out at night,not that i have seen,i have to dig them out for the treatments is that ok? I think that is why they are not coming out at night,should i still let the humidity drop so low (it is around 30 percent right now) if they are not soaking at night? |
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| 03/17/07 11:20pm |
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Help!! Sick Frogs!! Vets aren’t helping!
Help!! Sick Frogs!! Vets aren’t helping!
Help!! Sick Frogs!! Vets aren’t helping!
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