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ViT Rrrragdoll ViT Hoppy ViT Rrrragdoll Hoppy ViT Rrrragdoll ViT Rrrragdoll Hoppy ViT Hoppy ViT Hoppy ViT Hoppy ViT Hoppy ViT Hoppy ViT Hoppy |
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ViT View Profile |
HELP
Thanks, Wayne |
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| 09/23/08 10:44pm |
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Rrrragdoll View Profile |
Message To: ViT In reference to Message Id: 1867044 HELP
Can you post a picture? Personally I use living tanks so that you don’t have to do the weekly full tank redo because we all know that one week can easily turn into two you know! That way I just pick out any visiable poo and wipe down the glass and any yucky leaves. I keep a couple water bowls for each tank so it’s really easy to swap one out quick in case I don’t have time to wash and clean it right away. It sounds like you may have a bacterial infection going, it can get worse with poor conditions. Keep the water pristine. If it gets bad you may need to think about doing the melafix dips (look for the directions down the threads.) You can try putting on some Neosporin on it (ONLY the one with NO painkillers!) Maybe if you are able to move to a living tank it can benefit you? |
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| 09/23/08 11:14pm |
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ViT View Profile |
Message To: Rrrragdoll In reference to Message Id: 1867067 HELP
thanks for the quick reply, Wayne |
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| 09/23/08 11:34pm |
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Hoppy View Profile |
Message To: ViT In reference to Message Id: 1867073 HELP
Can you seperate her into a sick tank if you haven’t done so? Paper towel substrate and high temps like 85f day and night..... No misting in sick tank or the main tank... Darken it by books or something taped on sides with just front open...infrareds are good for night and day/sick tanks.. A small amount of washable deco is fine insure there is a good hiding spot like a cave of sorts... Fresh water each morning.... She may loose appetite at this time if so miss feedings. Crix should not be left too long in tank.... Only put a couple that she will eat or hand or container feed. Crix can pass bacterial infections. Even your main tank it would be wise not having crix in for now and throw away any remaining so they don’t infect your other crix.. Its really important you keep her seperate temporarily until well..... Check over the others too... I would use the mela fix along with the cream your using (insure no pain stuff in it).... Even if the others show no signs I would treat them with mela fix to insure nothing starts as they have already been exposed... Its painless and all natural.. ONce done you can begin misting the main tank again but not the sick tank. Sick tank should stay dry for the 30 days to insure all cells are killed.... The rubbermaid water dish has to be changed...it could be a bacterial issue from this... With luck thats what it is. It can easily only affect one frog if one sits in it more etc.... What are you cleaning the tank with? Vinegar and water is best as it leaves no residue... Bleach is ok but leaves residue so diligent rinsing is required... Keep us posted... HOPPY |
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| 09/24/08 08:33am |
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ViT View Profile |
Message To: Hoppy In reference to Message Id: 1867208 HELP
thanks again, Wayne |
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| 09/24/08 08:46am |
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Rrrragdoll View Profile |
Message To: ViT In reference to Message Id: 1867231 HELP
Basically 4 adult whites would need a 50 gal tank. I am not sure the safety of what you’re using so be careful, it could be too powerful for them. Melafix is available at Walmart and at petstores. Fish section. Do Not use the directions on the bottle, use the directions on this forum, search "melafix instructions". Make sure that your water is treated and changed everyday. You can cover the sides and front of the sick tank with paper bags taped up. Make sure you keep it warm enough, but not too hot, smaller tanks can heat up quickly. |
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| 09/25/08 03:11am |
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Hoppy View Profile |
Message To: ViT In reference to Message Id: 1867231 HELP
I just bumped up the mela fix instructions... follow them to the T.... The instructions on the bottle are for fish tanks and if the concentrated version ponds... Vinegar for cleaning should be diluted.... Some use 50/50 I prefer a third vinegar for sick tanks.... Only use crix while ill.... this insures proper digestion of food source without introducing new parasite loads.. Roaches have a high bacterial content.. Even walking across a tank it leaves bacteria behind. Did you mean bacitracin zinc cream?.... This does contain zinc which is toxic to amphibians.. ............................................................................................................................................. This is for herp proofing your home article.... Poisonous heavy metals include zinc, lead, and arsenic, which are surprisingly common in a household. Zinc is present in galvanized metal such as nails, staples, and solder. It may also be present in zinc oxide skin preparations, such as Desitin and sunblock containing zinc oxide; calamine lotion; suppositories; shampoos; zinc undecylenate (Desenex); and fertilizers. Be sure to wash your hands after using these items and before handling your herp. Lead is present in lead-containing paint, linoleum, tile, batteries, plumbing materials, putty, lead foil, solder, and acid (soft) drinking water from lead pipes or improperly glazed ceramic water bowls. Arsenic is a highly poisonous metal used in insecticides, pesticides, rodenticides, weed killers, wood preservatives, some insulation, and some alloys. Other poisons, such as herbicides (weed killers), snail and slug bait, insecticides (flea and tick control products), pesticides (ant poison), and rodenticides (rat poison). Be careful with mouse traps, too. ........................................................................................................................ There was also a book written called " Eastern Deciduous Forest Ecology And Wildlife Conservation" by Richard H. Yahner 2000. A book of case study on envioronmental factors.. A paragraph there of includes this: Zinc impact on wildlife with a case study is on two smelters placing zinc along Bule Mtns. in Eastern Penn. to see its effect... Within 3 kms. of the smelters more than 800 hectares of slope were devoid of any vedgetation and all vertebrea (birds, mammals, amphibians) were gone until past 5 kms.... .................................................................................................................................. I only put this for you and others to learn by and to prove that the product your using is unsafe for amphibians... A better product would be the neo sporin (no pain med) or silver sulfadiazine cream (pharmacys for burns in people).. As this is bacterial its vital to let air get to the skin for healing but also so you don’t trap moisture underneath any cream... When using the creams its best to do the mela fix as an antibacterial and then cream to keep clean but only once the frog is dry from the dip.... HOPPY |
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| 09/25/08 09:24am |
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ViT View Profile |
Message To: Hoppy In reference to Message Id: 1867967 HELP
thank you both, ill try and keep you posted. Wayne |
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| 09/28/08 01:00pm |
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Rrrragdoll View Profile |
Message To: ViT In reference to Message Id: 1869933 HELP
Since you are using a plastic container I would seriously hesitate to use any bleach (even a solution) on it since it can absorb it. You can try to do a very light solution of vingar to water,, maybe a capful, scrub it up really well and rinse right away, don’t let it sit in there. Do you have some type of screen on the tub? You may be having an issue where there isn’t enough air flow which compounds the fecal issue. You’ll need to keep it really clean, water changed every day. Make sure the water is treated, I use a milk jug filled with tap water then add the drops and leave overnight. Since they all have issues then I would just leave them on paper towels with some climbing pieces and the water dish. Make sure that your gauges are in the right places and that they are always within range, it is very important with them being ill that you stay right in the ranges preferrably a bit on the warmer end. Do the dips as mentioned on this site, note that you are not even using a drop of the Melafix, you are just putting the tip into Melafix and tap it off then swirl it around the water. If they are continuing to eat then that would be good. Make sure that there is enough to eat for everyone, figuring 4-6 each every other day (16-24 crickets/ 2 days) around the size of the distance between their eyes. A picture would be best to help. |
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| 09/28/08 07:46pm |
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ViT View Profile |
Message To: Rrrragdoll In reference to Message Id: 1870218 HELP
Wayne |
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| 09/28/08 08:03pm |
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Rrrragdoll View Profile |
Message To: ViT In reference to Message Id: 1870239 HELP
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| 09/29/08 10:55pm |
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Hoppy View Profile |
Message To: Rrrragdoll In reference to Message Id: 1871155 HELP
No misting.... As bacterial infections pass through water molecules misting spreads it further.... A water dish is ideal as they replenish without infecting other areas of your tank.... Rrragdoll is correct on dehydration issues without a dish... misting does not replenish the frogs overall stores of water. They can intake some moisture from the air to survive dry periods in the wild but not overall health... This also does not allow them to flush out the sickness.. Like you with a flu..drink lots of fluids etc...this is to replenish with fever and to flush out bacteria in your system.... Tetracyline can not be used with mela fix.... All meds should be given seperately with at least a week inbetween other than if directed by vet or another experienced keeper with medications. Is yours in pill form or in drops to use? dose? Finish the mela fix first.... if there is no improvement upon finishing you can start another round of mela fix after 3 days..... I usually suggest keeping each frog longer in the dip up to a max of 5 min. But only as far as they are comfortable. Its best to avoid as much stress as possible under these circumstances.... We can cross this bridge once your setup is correct because anything stronger in medications could be lethal without water to flush their systems or temps to help healing ect... I do realize you are trying to do your best but please change these few things or things will get much worse.... Your water dish should be changed every am to allow frogs night dips without stress and then fresh is given for the next night... HOPPY |
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| 09/30/08 06:49am |
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ViT View Profile |
Message To: Hoppy In reference to Message Id: 1871274 HELP
thanks for all the help. Wayne |
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| 09/30/08 09:22pm |
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Hoppy View Profile |
Message To: ViT In reference to Message Id: 1871971 HELP
First your doing the mela fix dips 2 times a day?...... Please note if this is correct you are over dosing them... Please follow my post here on forum to the T or you may kill them with kindness...ok? Though the mela fix may not kill them the stress of the dips could ok? The mela fix in this dose would do more harm than good though.. Also insure you are doing dips individually in seperate dishes... Second...bacterial wipes? what kind of wipes?..... Most human wipes like Mr. Clean etc all contain residues and added ingredients like ammonia...all of which toxic.... Please only use wipes sold specifically for herps tanks (must say amphibians on them) or use bleach rinsed or the vinegar and water method... These are much safer without causing more issues.. If you have been using these wipes for some time is it possible that the frogs illness can be from this? Many will cause skin ulcerations and irritation..... The treatment would be the same but you would of found the cause.... Please advise...... HOPPY |
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| 10/01/08 06:56am |
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ViT View Profile |
Message To: Hoppy In reference to Message Id: 1872196 HELP
the mela fix is 2x a day because my mom does an extremely low dose in the morning. i give them a very quick dip in an also semi low dose later at night. i only did it the first 2 days. there now only doing one dose. i am aware of the stress it causes. the dips have all been done individually. the bacterial wipes have been done with non toxic wipes but have also been done by wiping it down with only one wipe. wiping again with a tamp down. than a dry towel. to rinse it and dilute anything that might have still been left. i have only done it once now since they have been in the sick tank. all other times have been with a 2% bleach solution. 2% is okay correct? the treatment as of now seems to be doing better. the sores on wilas but are still prominant i would say, but they seem to be doing better. they still have the blue color around them. there are two sores one on each side of the vent. the three males only showed signs of red leg. the pinkish belly and hind legs. all three of the males seem to be showing signs of improvment with the loss of the pinkness. there still in there and will be in there until i dont see any for a couple melafix treatments. all three males are also still eating.... my girl wila doesnt seem to eat. i saw the three males eat a cricket or two but wila wouldnt eat from me holding them. i left about 6 or 7 crickets in the tank and walked back in about 5 minutes and they were all gone. she still has her weight on her but i dont like her not eating. Long message but i want you to have all questions answered with updates and what i have been doing. sorry its hard to keep up to date on here and study... i had three exams this week for school. ive been really busy. but i have been keeping up on cleanliness and treatments of my frogs. they are the most important animal i have. ;.; i appreciate all the help especially you hoppy for keeping up on the treatments and baring with me as i learn the best ways to take care of my "family". Thanks, Wayne |
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| 10/02/08 10:17pm |
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Hoppy View Profile |
Message To: ViT In reference to Message Id: 1873575 HELP
You may have to seperate your female by the sounds of things.... If the others are improving it would be wise to keep them in one tank for the 30 days rather than a risk of re-contamination from your sicker female... Can you put your female maybe in a another temp container for now.. She could be intimidated by the males too as hiarchy is always present in groups.... Still continue all else like your dips and temps etc... After your mela fix treatment is completed the others may be fine and after the 30 days could go back into the main tank... Your female though may need another round of treatment.. An adult Whites should eat 12 crix a week if in normal size. Smaller Whites may eat less but generally they have always been sluggish eaters so is normal for them. As yours in general was a better eater its wise to question her loss of appetite.... Some as they find food plentiful can slow down. For this reason many only eat twice weekly or three times a week. They require space for digestion between feedings. So if your not doing this already try it... you may see her appetite come back with gusto. Its advised to skip days when frogs are adults regardless if some could eat each day.... In the wild adults eat when food is there meaning many times there isn’t food.... A diluted bleach solution is fine just insure you rinse well.... Bleach does leave a residue which is toxic to any pets so insure you get it rinsed in the corners etc.... Keep me posted... Good luck with your exams.. HOPPY |
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| 10/03/08 10:57am |
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ViT View Profile |
Message To: Hoppy In reference to Message Id: 1873805 HELP
Thanks, Wayne |
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| 10/03/08 02:38pm |
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Hoppy View Profile |
Message To: ViT In reference to Message Id: 1873929 HELP
Insure you finish the treatment in full on the males as well as they have been exposed to the bacteria. Yes a break should be given on any treatment program before starting a new so no chance of overdose is possible. A 3 day break should be plenty with mela fix....some stronger meds should be always given a week.... Using the neosporin inbetween is fine...just remember to insure the area is dry before applying or you will lock in bacteria. Sometimes leaving it to the air does more for an open sore so it might be worth on the 3 days to leave it off then apply it agian upon the mela fix treatment continuation... Let me know how it all goes Wayne.. HOPPY |
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| 10/07/08 06:34am |
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ViT View Profile |
Message To: Hoppy In reference to Message Id: 1876514 HOPPY HELP!!
keep the suggestions coming though hoppy. if you want you can throw a few of your setup pictures on here on how you keep the humidity up and breeze through the tank successfully. i plan to finish there 400 gal before they go back into a perm. tank. there not going back into the large rubbermaid. i rebuilt it from scratch, but i would rather not let them get sick again possibly. that rubbermaid is going in the trash just to be sure. thanks alot hoppy, Wayne |
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| 10/08/08 11:31pm |
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Hoppy View Profile |
Message To: ViT In reference to Message Id: 1877485 HOPPY HELP!!
Even herp vets don’t get too many amphibians. Please don’t think that I’m saying ’no vet’.... just it must be a herp vet. Also the shedding with Willa is normal for a frog under treatment. You are dipping her in a medication though a natural one so to her its foreign which is why she sheds. Secondly the shed can be removing the toxin.... The shedding and slightly watery stools is detoxifying her system.. This is a good thing. A white belly is normal, and slightly pink on thighs and belly can be fine.... Remember that most sick frogs or really ill frogs won’t eat. Many when using meds don’t eat and this is normal so its taken before the treatment began. After treatment many start to eat again within a day or two of no dips... The reason no food is taken during treatments is the frogs way of healing itself. Some as you have seen with Willa will shed and some watery stools, lethargic and others still like comatose....all normal reactions. Your males are eating so have done well and will most likely be fine... Just watch them over the time left in their temporary tank and insure all eat and waste is present.... If your really are set on the vet visit....Ask for Baytril.... Its an antibiotic and has good success with frogs. Any med though is risk ok? Drops on their back is the best when using this particular antibiotic its done by frog weight... I really think though without a herp vet it could be a risky visit... Your money would be better spent even at 2 hours away.... Personally I would only take the female if any..... The males strike me as fine from your posts... As for humidity.... I use larger water areas. For a small group of frogs if more than two I prefer two dishes so no bullying hopefully occurs... I use reptile dishes and plant bottoms of terra cotta either plain or finished... HOPPY hospital tank..
My normal tank.....
My tanks are pretty basic.... |
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| 10/09/08 06:51am |
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ViT View Profile |
Message To: Hoppy In reference to Message Id: 1877611 HOPPY HELP!!
R.I.P Wilamina. Trying to be on the positive side of things though, you said redness on the belly is normal for some frogs? the 3 males keep changing it up. could it be because there in the sick tank without there normal humidity that they keep getting the redish belly? i mean one of the frogs is like red red. if you get what i mean. its covering almost the entire belly. but i hear most people refer to redleg as patches or blotches? i think im going to take there sick tank and build it up for a few days like normal and keep it misted to see if they change it up. there all eating and been doing okay. i will continue to melafix dip them for a few days while i keep them misted just in case. i think all in all there doing better, but i want to make sure its positive. sound good? Wayne |
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| 10/10/08 07:33am |
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Hoppy View Profile |
Message To: ViT In reference to Message Id: 1878121 HOPPY HELP!!
Generally the sick tank won’t make any difference on skin or appearance. But as yours are all males its possible the less dominant males are trying to get out at night to get away from the more dominant one...bullying I guess or even just as the tank is smaller. Though Whites are docile being in a smaller tank with less places to hide can cause issues. The humidity levels won’t cause this as they will dip normally. However if there is a dominant male then he may not allow the other frogs to use the area to replenish which is what happens in nature in dry times. The strongest survive... The only solution to this is by seperating them into their own tanks... This does allow a better chance of survival for all involved with illnesses as it stops recontamination issues so is worth the effort... Where Willa has passed (So Sorry).... it was a good thing your males aren’t together with her but now its vital to insure they are treated.... Red leg is so aggressive an illness that most only survive a few days.. The red shows on the thighs and then onto the belly normally. It usually looks like welts say from insects then it opens up into open sores... There is very little success on treating it and success is very dependant on stage of the illness and health of the frog etc.... If its any help a vet couldn’t of saved her either if Red leg.... Some other bacterias can hang around for a longer period of time before the frog succumbs to it.. These are usually more treatable...There are bacteria which cause fungus so bacteria is center point of contamination. These bacteria can also show ulcers. The only way red leg is diagnosed is by a pathologist testing using the lymph nodes at a vet facility or other animal type medical facility like some universities or zoos... Your males by now would be showing signs if redleg....Its so contagious it would of killed all your stock within a couple of weeks... Can you google images of redleg to see for comparison?.... Under the circumstance this is what I personally would do... First I would seperate the males as its the only chance if its red leg or any very aggressive bacteria... Second I would re-treat all of them with mela fix for a second time but this time keep them in longer for the dip up to 5 min.. Thirdly...check temps remain high.... paper towel substrate etc... All the usual protocol... * Most bacteria is caused by over moist conditions and too cool of temps and dirty... Red leg being the most common. If any get worse then you can use the tetracycline.... Can you give me the dose on what you have so I can see if its possible to break it down for you to use... I will post the usual dose... If by chance any worsen I mean in welts or ulcers use it with no time break from the mela fix dip and stop the mela fix once you start ok? First this is if you see a vet (red leg common antidotes).... for Baytril... its based on 20mg/kg orally or Some prefer giving.. Metronidazole given at 50-100mg mg/kg... As for Tetracycline (for bacterial and fungal skin lesions / antibiotic in nature)... 250mg of Tetracycline to one cup of water (8 0z. treated).... Use whatever amount necessary for your frog to sit in comfortably as a dip for 5 min.. done twice daily am and pm... Solution can only be used one time so must be made fresh each time... you can make it fresh then as its 8 ounzes you can most likely divide it up into seperate dishes for each frog just insure the back gets some but not the head... Insure frogs don’t get near each other and wash hands between entering each frogs tank.... Cross contamination is the biggest issue in groups of frogs. Dishes should be kept seperate for each frog also and washed after each use but seperate from the other dishes...I like bleach or vinegar solutions.. Insure the dishes are ceramic like our own people dishes... Using small cups or throw away cups for people is ideal then chuck after each use... Good luck.. Keep me posted.. HOPPY |
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| 10/10/08 10:23am |
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ViT View Profile |
Message To: Hoppy In reference to Message Id: 1878179 HOPPY HELP!!
thanks again hoppy, and thank you for your sympathy to wila. she will be missed. Wayne |
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| 10/12/08 09:52pm |
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Hoppy View Profile |
Message To: ViT In reference to Message Id: 1879764 HOPPY HELP!!
How are they all doing now? Hope all are ok... HOPPY |
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| 10/17/08 04:28pm |
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