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Brandnew. Whitestreeyoda Brandnew. Sh0e Brandnew. Sh0e Brandnew. |
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Brandnew. View Profile |
Salamander and tree frogs.. opions
basically im doing a degree in animal behaviour and welfare, and for my next assignment i have to carry out an investigative project. my topic is species co-habitation in captive environments. i am considering mixing the two species, fire salamander and european green tree frogs. i hae mixed species before when younger (anoles, hyla cin, skinks) and i had great success. currently i have a fire sal. from france (a friend collected it when he was out there, kinda bad but i didnt ask him to) he has been in captivity for almost a year now, monitored and quarenteened. he is 100% healthy and currently about 5"long. he is in a 4ftx12"x12" glass tank, well planted with moss sub. i shall get some photos up soon, there is also another glass tank unside down at one end on top of the tank becuase the plants were a bit too tall for the tank lol. basically its a very large tank with only a small sal. in it. for my investigative project i will be adding a pair or trio of hyla aborea to this setup. i will then be monitoring their behaviour (im gonna have some late nights watching nocturnal critters) and to determine if the two species are compatable. their natural ranges overlap greatly and both live in different sections on the vivarium ( terrestrial sal and aboreal tree frogs). so i cant see many problems occuring. the only thing that botheres me is pathogen cross over and the toxins present on both species. the hyla aborea were not toxic to anoles or takydromus sexlineus. its the fire sal. im mainly concered about. they do possess toxins, but these are only excreated when aggitated correct? the main area where they could become contaminated would be the water bowl. so regular changing of this would hopfully resuve this. i may also add a small air powered carbon filter to remove toxins. so long as both species are well fed and the frogs are large enough not to be swallowed there shouldnt be a prblem with predation correct? i may even record the environment with a camera. can anyone think of anything else that could go wrong? id like to know how you think this project will go. if the species are not compatable i will not lose any marks. infact it will give me more to write about. but i jsut dont want any harm to come to the animals. species mixing can work for animal with the same care requirements. i house my 4 map turtles with a shovle nosed catfish and a indonesian snake neck turtle. i have a selection of turtles i rescued that live together, yelow bellies, maps, european pond turtles, red bellies, musks etc. only used get the odd tail nipped, then after some observation i found it was one map turtle biting all the others, so he was removed. |
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| 10/02/09 08:41am |
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Whitestreeyoda View Profile |
Message To: Brandnew. In reference to Message Id: 2079381 Salamander and tree frogs.. opions
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| 10/02/09 11:57am |
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Brandnew. View Profile |
Message To: Whitestreeyoda In reference to Message Id: 2079411 Salamander and tree frogs.. opions
however in captivity toxins become less potent due to a more ’bland’ diet if you will. so in theory the toxins would be of a lower potency. also the toxins would only kill other animals through bio-acumulation, as in repeated ingestion. simply making contact wit the sal. skin once woulsnt be enough to kill or even make a tree frog sick. it should only cause a minor skin irritation which the frog can then remove by swimming in the water bowl. the main areas where the frogs could become contaminated with the toxin would be the waterbowl and the salamander itself. i will provide two water bowls one elevated out of the salamanders reach whichthe treefrogs would most likely prefer to use. i will also fit activated carbon filters onto the water bowls, (a simply air stone with an activated carbon pouch around it. this should filter out any toxins present as they are used on aquariums with a larger volume of water. i may also add acitveated carbon to the substrate to neutralise any toxins that gather in the vivarium floor. there isnt much i can do about species interation, if the tree frog hassles the sal. it could get toxins on its skin. but this is only likly to occur once. after the unpleasent experience this shouldnt happen again as the tree frog will ’learn’ from its mistakes. i was considering using a different species but the idea with this project is that i can collecting new data. many species can co-habbitate with some succuess. such as anoles and green tree frogs, but i couldnt find any informtion on these two species being kept together. it seems quite feasable so i think i am going to go ahead with the project. the animals will be monitored greatly during the night, if a problem occurs i can simply seperate the two species. plus that way i will have more to wrtie about in my write up. i shall keep you posted on the topic. thank you very much for your input. if you come up with anything else that might be a problem with this species mix please let me know. |
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| 10/03/09 10:44am |
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Sh0e View Profile |
Message To: Brandnew. In reference to Message Id: 2079795 Salamander and tree frogs.. opions
Filtration on the water is designed, once cycled for a month, to colonize bacteria that will neutralize the natural toxins associated with the Nitrogen Cycle. They will help with excreted animal toxins, but not eliminate them of course. There’s not much information on the subject, because it’s generally accepted by experined hobbyists and breeders that mixing species will generally cost more in the long run by making animals sick. If you really want to prove your theories out you’ll have to run your experiement through the natural lives of the animals. I would pick animals with short life exptancies like green tree frogs and anoles. Sallies can live upwards of 1-2 decades. However, most greens and anolees are wild caught, so you have no way of knowing how old they are and if they come to you already disease ridden. Sorry, but there’s a ton of work and expense you’ll have to put in to prove it enough to convince people about just 2 different species. I hear about a lot of people that have mixed, boasted that it worked great, their setups are maybe at most 1-4 months old, then then never come back with their results. I have also heard about a lot of poeple who mix and kill their animals. It’s too much to bite off for me to ever care to test against what I know already works. That’s just my opinion. |
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| 10/05/09 11:14pm |
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Brandnew. View Profile |
Message To: Sh0e In reference to Message Id: 2080774 Salamander and tree frogs.. opions
i under stand that toxins will build up in the tank, long term that may be a problm, but the two only have to co-habbitate for a few weeks for a project. i will most likely seperate to two shortly after. that can be a limiation of the species mix, long term toxin build up. the mix doesnt have to be 100% succuessful for my project to be. sounds harsh but i honestly wont let any harm come to the frogs. as for the toxins, i will reduce build up by adding carbon (which will neutralise toxins, it pretty much makes anything safer) many species of frog are toxic, europeans arnt that much. i dont think u undr stood what i meant by the filteration. you spoke about the nitrogen cycle (ammonia - nitrite - nitrate) which im very familiar with as a fish keeper. however what i was trying to explain was that i will be adding a ’active carbon only’ filter - sort of home made. the carbon will remove toxins produced by the sal. and frogs. both frog their glads ( the stuff im mostly worried about) and also toxic ammonia from feaces. the nitrogen cycle doesnt come into it, its not biological filteration. only chemical/mechanical. - carbon ( the chem. part of the filter) removes toxins from the water - mechanical the air pump circulates water past carbon to increase turn over. the water will be replaced every day and the carbon every few days. this will effectivly remove all toxins. trust me. in a large aquarium a small amount of carbon (in relation to tank volume) does remove quite a lot. considering there will be a higher carbon:water volume ration it should be more effective. plus there is less stock. so toxins in the water obwl shouldnt be a prblm. toxins on moss in the vivaium where the sal. walks however could be an issue, carbon and regular cleaning should minimise this. i under stand your argument completly. iv kept species mixes together (some a bit foolish) when younger. and i have different species of turtle together atm. im quite prepared for this in terms of experience. plus as its a college project it will require heavy amounts of monitoring etc. so the animals should be ok. i picked up two tree frogs today. they are in quarenteen atm. chriping like mad lol. they are larger than the sal. head so wont be a meal.. i shall get some photos up soon. |
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| 10/06/09 03:51pm |
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Sh0e View Profile |
Message To: Brandnew. In reference to Message Id: 2080986 Salamander and tree frogs.. opions
People will read this and totally miss out on the life span of this project and assume that mixing sallies and frogs is fine. Thus is the youtube generation. I don’t know what sort of base frog and sallie toxins are, so I don’t know about the carbon. While carbon filtering will help with amonia levels, without the bacteria coloniees there will inevitably be an amonia spike and later a nitrite spike. However, if you are changing the water daily, then there would be no real need for the carbon or pump. As you said you’re going to monitor them, be sure to check that everyone still has their arms and legs at the end of the day. What are the exact species you are going to use? All amphibians excrete a slime that is at least mildly toxic, at least as far as I am aware. |
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| 10/06/09 07:37pm |
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Brandnew. View Profile |
Message To: Sh0e In reference to Message Id: 2081118 Salamander and tree frogs.. opions
--- still u dont seem to understand my point. carbon will remove: toxins from amphibians (hopfully all) ammonia nitrite nitrate. from the two WATER BOWLS. i am puting them in the water bowls. ..... i.e. a very small bowl of water, like a few cubic cm of water. - - - - ITS A WATER BOWL.. like anyother water bowl i will be empying and cleaning it every day. the nitrogen cycle doesnt even come into it. becuase i will be cleaning it and refilling it every day and they wil lbe a carbon filter in it no ammonia, nitrite or nitrate will ever be present .EVER. i use RO water for my amphibians. whihc is devoid of any toxins that build up in an aquarium. its like, say u owned a leopard gecko.... u dont worry about ammonia etc in its water bowl becuase you are cleaning it and re filling it every day. the ammonia doesnt have a change to increase in levels. thus theb acteria that breaks it down doesnt either. - the water bowl is void of bacteria or ammonia. get it? nitrogen cycle simplified: raw waste (in an aquarium - fish poo, uneated food, dead fis/plants etc) ------> builds up into ammonia -------> ammonia is broken down by bacteria in the aquariums filter into less harmful waste nitrite. (the spounge part is biological, its the bit with th bacteria in, the filter may also have active carbon in it which neutralises ammonia and any other toxins in the aquarium.) --------> the bacteria then breaks down the nitrite into nitrate! which is only harmful in lrger amounts. this cycle happens in a body of water with a filter that is left to mature and grow the bacteria. to start with ammonia is needed to start the cycle. its kind of a ’food’ for the bacteria. if i had, say a small pool in the vivarium with a filter (with both biological and chemical filteration - spounge and carbon) then this cycle would be relevant... but i dont. so it isnt. the two small water bowls will be: cleaned soo often, that no ammonia builds up and no bacteria grows. not have a biological filter. ONLY CHEMICAL. - active carbon- purely to remove toxins produced in the amphibs ’slim’ as u described. the ammonia is not an issue becuase it wont have a chance to build up because, like any other animals water bowl, it wil lbe cleaned daily. please tell me you under stand? not being harsh. most critisims are very usful for my write up. however the nitrogen cycle (ammonia->nitrite->nitrate) is totally irrelevant. lol. as part of my monitoring, any aggression/eating of limbs will be prevented from occuring... i will specerate them. the species im mixing are 1x fire salamander (salamandra salamandra) collected by a friend from france. its a small individual. been in captivity for almost a year now. stable and parasite free. 2x european green tree frogs (hyla arborea) - CB pair i purchased from a local reptile shop. very good condition. this project is for an assignment i have been issued entitled ’investigative project’ - basically and investigation into a subjuct in the field of animal behaviour or welfare or management. . .idealy all three. which this does. im doing a degree in animal behaviour and welfare. i have already explained what species and why.... its also in the title of my post. i dont mean to sound harsh but i do havea lot of work to do, and whilst these questions are very helpful for my assignment write up, if you could please read what i have already explained because i really dont like repeating myself too much. but thank you very much for your interest in the subject, truly withou this kind of interation with other people i wouldnt get a good enough grade. o and this projects results will be, likeany information regarding species mixing, circumstantial. . . it might not work for everyone. if it does work that doesnt mean every one can do it. it depends greatly on the circumstances and individual animals used. photos coming soon. thank you. |
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| 10/07/09 12:05pm |
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