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 #2120412


Troy76012
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 Ornates and Philbyi / CITES proposal 03/25/2010

CITES has a proposal to up list Uromastyx ornata ornata, and Uromastyx ornata philbyi from Appendix II to Appendix I. Proposal has a 03/13 - 03/25/2010 consideration of proposal date.

So if this proposal passes it could very well ban the importation or exportation of Ornates and Philbyi.


Here is the link.

Link



02/04/10  07:42pm

 #2120617


Obi Carl Kenobi
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  Message To: Troy76012   In reference to Message Id: 2120412


 Ornates and Philbyi / CITES proposal 03/25/2010

I dont want to see the wild populations affected and care alot about preserving the poulation of wild animals. But in that document they listed one of the factors was "depletion of the habitat" for their decline. How are the uros going to survive unless they provide better living conditions in the wild for them? I agree that the illegal importation of them has to stop, but most people in the pet trade look for captive bred uromastyx anyway!! would this document stop us breeding them in captivity? i shouldnt think so!!! if that is true i would have to say that i support this document because it is simply stopping the cruel methods of getting uromastyx on the cheap.



02/05/10  11:27am

 #2120625


Troy76012
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  Message To: Obi Carl Kenobi   In reference to Message Id: 2120617


 Ornates and Philbyi / CITES proposal 03/25/2010

I agree with you. I support the proposal as well. It should not affect those of us captive breeding Ornates and Philbyi, but if it passes it seems like it will ban the exportation of Ornates and Philbyi, thus protecting them from being harvested from the wild.



02/05/10  12:21pm

 #2120648


UL
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  Message To: Troy76012   In reference to Message Id: 2120625


 Ornates and Philbyi / CITES proposal 03/25/2010

CITES only effects shipments between countries, not within any country.
I was surprised to see that TRAFFIC recommended opposing the proposal.
Lindsay



02/05/10  12:55pm

 #2120665


Mattyh
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  Message To: UL   In reference to Message Id: 2120648


 Ornates and Philbyi / CITES proposal 03/25/2010

Great so another animal that will become almost impossible to get a hold off, well how long before they become extinct in the wild, if there habitat is being destroyed how is CITES going to protect them the point is they wont!!.
Then because there will not be enough of them captive bred they cant be reintroduced if they become extinct in the wild and there wont be enough genetic diversity for them to become viable long term with what we have left, CITES is a joke the only real people it effects are people who keep them as pets and thus breed them.
The same thing happened with Seahorses they went on CITES and you cant get many of them now, however the counties that are decimating there populations are not signed up to CITES so its pointless, the bloody Chinese medicine trade gets most animals, not sure if they use Uros but would not be surprised if they did, the trade to them will not stop because they are not signed up to Cites, Chances are without animals being legally passed to the pet trade and thus to use to breed and make sure there is a population they will at some point go extinct and how sad is it people possibly wont even know they have become extinct in the wild.
As for the illegal trade you have to be joking if you think this will stop them the illegal trade will go out the roof and instead of alot of animals making it to the pet trade legally in good condition, most wont make it or if they do will be in appalling state with a huge price tag.
Anyways that’s my whinge at the end of the day the pet trade need some wild animals getting into the trade to improve captive bred gene pools without that both wild and captive animals will eventually become doomed!!!

Regards

matt



02/05/10  02:00pm

 #2120829


Benedita
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  Message To: Troy76012   In reference to Message Id: 2120412


 Ornates and Philbyi / CITES proposal 03/25/2010

I have mixed feelings about the effects, but all in all I am happy about this.
I am pro because it will keep cheap imports from ending up in pet stores and animals at death’s door being purchased by unsuspecting people who think a vet visit is too expensive.
I do feel bad for the breeders out there, who depend on handpicked imports to diversify their breeding stock.



02/05/10  10:16pm

 #2120883


Mattyh
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  Message To: Benedita   In reference to Message Id: 2120829


 Ornates and Philbyi / CITES proposal 03/25/2010


Well all I can say is more fool you, if your a reptile keeper then this is always a bad thing, first they do a few animals then it is alot easier to get the rest of the species on the list.
At the end of the day CITES are a load of muppets that dont have a clue, the pet trade is the perfect way that habitats can be saved instead of stopping the collection they should be teaching the locals about farming the animals, teaching them the importance of correct shipping etc that way its a win win there are healthy animals put into the trade at an early age, the local see the importance of the habitas because they make money from them and there are wild uros.
Dont get me wrong I breed uros myself and always say get a captive uro if you can, however thats not always possible because of the amount of eats and how difficult it is to breed uros there isnt enough captive bred anamals as it is one of my pairs of uros were captive farmed I got them young they now produce about 3 batches of eggs a year and thats just how they bred I dont force them. I i’d not got that pair I would not be putting caprive bred animals into the trade.



02/06/10  03:52am

 #2120885


Rose of Jericho
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  Message To: Mattyh   In reference to Message Id: 2120883


 Ornates and Philbyi / CITES proposal 03/25/2010

I’m with Troy on this. It sounds to me like you’re happy for CITES to vanish just so there will be more available for you when you’re wanting them, and you’re using "protection through captivity" as a handy excuse.



02/06/10  04:19am

 #2120912


Troy76012
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  Message To: Rose of Jericho   In reference to Message Id: 2120885


 Ornates and Philbyi / CITES proposal 03/25/2010

Mattyh wrote:
“got them young they now produce about 3 batches of eggs a year and thats just how they bred I dont force them.”

Troy Wrote:
Wow that is amazing? I am just getting back into breeding Uromastyx this year and I am interested in your statement that your are producing 3 batches of eggs a year. What species are they?

Do you house you Uromastyx together 100 percent of the time?

Do you brumate them several times a year to get this result or is it naturally occurring? I would worry about burning out the female with here having so many clutches that she would not have time to recuperate.

Mattyh wrote:
Well all I can say is more fool you, if your a reptile keeper then this is always a bad thing, first they do a few animals then it is alot easier to get the rest of the species on the list.

Troy Wrote:
I disagree I feel it could be a good thing and I even support the up listing of all Uromastyx species from Appendix II to Appendix I.
Seems like it would help protect them in the wild and it would greatly
reduce the exportation of wild caught Uromastyx. I support captive
breeding Uromastyx to fulfill the demand for Uromastyx in the pet trade, instead of importing thousands of them a year. I feel if people had no other place to get Uromastyx then from breeders that the Uromastyx would end up
with a lot better chance of survival in captivity. Plus it would force breeders to support captive breeding and to continue to improve methods of caring for and breeding Uromastyx instead of looking to wild caught imports to fulfill the need for Uromastyx.

Lindsay wrote:
"CITES only effects shipments between countries, not within any country.
I was surprised to see that TRAFFIC recommended opposing the proposal.
Lindsay"

Troy Wrote:
Hello Lindsay my friend.
Yes it surprised me as well. I read parts of the opposing article
you sent me and I still do not understanding why they oppose it?
Seems like they are saying Ornates and philbyi are not in danger
right this second. Seems to me that they will be in danger in the near
future if they aren’t in danger now. And since when is philbyi a subspecies of ornatus?

Kindest regards,

Troy "uroranch"



02/06/10  08:57am

 #2121015


UL
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  Message To: Troy76012   In reference to Message Id: 2120912


 Ornates and Philbyi / CITES proposal 03/25/2010

"And since when is philbyi a subspecies of ornatus? "
Howdy Troy,
I forget where things were when you left off, but there’s been some additions and rearangements of the uro taxonomy in recent years. Geyri is it’s own (without looking it up, i think it used to be part of dispar). Ornate was removed from being a ocellata sub species and made it’s own species with 2 subspceies (ornata and philbyi), macfadyeni is also no longer a subspecies of ocellata, in relatively few years maliensis went from nothing to a sub of acanth, to it’s own species, to it’s current position as a subspecies of dispar. leptieni was added, benti split (as we knew it needed to be. remember when we called the mountain benti "pseudo-philbyi" because the permits incorrectly stated philbyi. they keyed out as benti but were obviously different so they got also called rainbows to differentiate from the lowlands) ... can you say shobraki?
OK - that’s my months quota for typing.
Lindsay (buy my Tempguns!) Pike, Urotopia



02/06/10  04:33pm

 #2121035


Jbreddawg
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  Message To: Troy76012   In reference to Message Id: 2120912


 Ornates and Philbyi / CITES proposal 03/25/2010

It would be a real shame to ban all imports. I do feel some heavily that imports should be moderated and controlled to keep the pet trade from abusing it. But we need imports to keep up with fresh bloodline’s. I think it would help out in the long run to be able to add imports to the mix. I may be wrong as I have never bred uro’s before though. Maybe Lindsey or Troy could add to my theory ?



02/06/10  05:59pm

 #2121055


Rtl402
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  Message To: Jbreddawg   In reference to Message Id: 2121035


 Ornates and Philbyi / CITES proposal 03/25/2010

I agree with everyone that there needs to be serious restriction, however with the serious economic issues, even attempting to limit shipments by law will increase the black market value. May also indirectly lead to additional harvesting for money. Unfortunately, most countries that claim to be the home to our beloved Uro’s do not have the available funds to provide the help Uro’s need to survive in the wild. Ideally, providing additional food sources for Uro’s or assisting in preventing natural predators or even setting up large plots for semi-captive breeding and release programs would be great. I am all for allowing exports and captive breeding programs, but unfortunately the knowledge of Uro’s is just not widely practiced. Vets do not know enough, and those pet stores who claim to have the info is always wrong. Its fortunate for Uro’s that we have wonderful breeders like Lindsay and Debb who provide good clean healthy captive habitats for Uro’s. Its DUMBA$$ store owners and young kids who ruin it. More Uro’s are imported are sickly, not cared for and mistreated. And this is why wild populations have been devastated.

Ok enough ranting.... point is, this restriction needs to be not just put on paper, but enfroced, and Uros in the wild need assistance to survive these current conditions. Will it all happen, probably not, but hopefully can help Uro’s sustain a population that will last for future generations



02/06/10  07:22pm

 #2121167


Troy76012
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  Message To: Rtl402   In reference to Message Id: 2121055


 Ornates and Philbyi / CITES proposal 03/25/2010

People always tell me that we can not ban importation of Uromastyx, how will we diversify our blood lines? How will we keep fresh breeders available?

Well I look at Bearded Dragons and they can no longer be imported and there is a huge base of dedicated Bearded Dragons breeders and there never seems to be a shortage of captive breed dragons available for purchase.

I feel that if Uromastyx were not available for importation that we would have more dedicated breeders.

It is simple supply and demand.

Take away the wild caught supply of Uromastyx and the demand for captive breed will increase so much that more people will get into keeping and breeding them.



02/07/10  11:00am

 #2121198


Mattyh
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  Message To: Troy76012   In reference to Message Id: 2121167


 Ornates and Philbyi / CITES proposal 03/25/2010

"I’m with Troy on this. It sounds to me like you’re happy for CITES to vanish just so there will be more available for you when you’re wanting them, and you’re using "protection through captivity" as a handy excuse."

In which case you are very very wrong you obviously do not understand the human condition! If humans do not need it, then they do not care for it. That is unfortunately a fact of life. People that live in the countries were uros naturally occur see them as nothing more that we see any of our wildlife most do not care for them, so why would they protect the uros habitats or protect those animals, they will only do that for money.
Putting them onto CITES 1 does only one thing to an animal that is make it worth a fortune to the wrong people, do you really think that the people who are making money from these animals will simply stop collecting them, they wont they will poach them in as many a number as they can get away with! And because it is Black market stuff they will not be shipped in better conditions then even the worse pet trader they will more than likely be worse, strapped to people etc.
I do my bit because I captive breed and also advise people to only get truly bred captive animals if they can, however this is not always the case. Currently there are no Ornates in the UK in any substantial numbers to Breed enough to create a captive population.
The fact of the matter is banning or CITES 1 will not work however education and making the animals worth something to the locals will, CITES will not do that and it creates a condition were black market trading which we know is done by criminals will thrive.
I agree that more control over wild animals is needed but like I said just educate the locals help then to create viable farms were uros can be bred in numbers to elevate them being take from the wild as sub adults and make the animals worth something to the locals. You are then creating protection for the uros because they will understand that the uros are worth something to them.

“People always tell me that we can not ban importation of Uromastyx, how will we diversify our blood lines? How will we keep fresh breeders available?

Well I look at Bearded Dragons and they can no longer be imported and there is a huge base of dedicated Bearded Dragons breeders and there never seems to be a shortage of captive breed dragons available for purchase.

I feel that if Uromastyx were not available for importation that we would have more dedicated breeders.

It is simple supply and demand.

Take away the wild caught supply of Uromastyx and the demand for captive breed will increase so much that more people will get into keeping and breeding them.”

From looking at your profile Troy I take it you breed, how many would you say you get from each female per year Max, Well my U. ocellata it would be 15 x 3 = 45 babies per year that is the max how many clutches do you think we would need to breed for all the people that love uros and would like one to keep as a pet to many.

As far as bearded dragons are concerned they are the easiest animal in the world to breed and hatch, everybody is doing it.
Uros are just not that easy if they were everybody would be dong it to.
Education and farming is the only way that enough Uros can be bred for it to be viable as well as protect the wild populations, as well as dedicated breeders also breeding and passing them onto people.
When I pass on my Uros I always give the new keepers a Care sheet with all the information that they need.
On forums when people ask question I answer truthfully with what works for me, I even say that it works for me but its up to them if they take my advice.
At the end of the day CITES will do what they want even if it will not protect the wild populations and Like I have already said the only losers are people who love uros and breed uros and the wild Uro populations which will not have any protection or real worth to the normal locals

regards

Matt



02/07/10  01:08pm

 #2121227


Obi Carl Kenobi
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  Message To: Mattyh   In reference to Message Id: 2121198


 Ornates and Philbyi / CITES proposal 03/25/2010

I think the main point here is protecting the wild uromastyx. Yes illegal imports prices would rise on the black market, but it still makes it harder for them to be moved between countries. I think if they set up a program to protect them in the wild and improve their habitat that this would be good. If individuals are needed to create new blood lines in captivity then that could be sorted with breeding programs. If enough effort is made by hobbyists and breeders i dont think it should be much of a problem.



02/07/10  02:31pm

 #2121261


Mattyh
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  Message To: Obi Carl Kenobi   In reference to Message Id: 2121227


 Ornates and Philbyi / CITES proposal 03/25/2010


So again why would there be any protection or improving of the uros habitat, like I said there is absolutely no reason for that to happen if the uros are worthless to the people, however if they can make money from them that’s another matter they will be more inclined to protect the habitat and animals. CITES does not do this it only stops the exportimport and in general makes the animal worthless to legal imprtexport or worthwhile for illegal exportimport



02/07/10  04:56pm

 #2121273


Obi Carl Kenobi
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  Message To: Mattyh   In reference to Message Id: 2121261


 Ornates and Philbyi / CITES proposal 03/25/2010

So what are you saying exactly? do you support the illegal trade of animals? because it seems that you think that if they are allowed to continue being illegally shipped in horrible conditions that this is the only way we can "protect" them.

My point was that i think they should moderate numbers being imported so we can still introduce new bloodlines and keep the pet trade healthy. But protect the Wild animals by improving habitat conditions and setting up breeding programs. Im not saying that CITES will do this (it would be great if they cared that much) but i feel im allowed my opinion and im just showing my concern.



02/07/10  05:50pm

 #2121275


Mattyh
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  Message To: Troy76012   In reference to Message Id: 2120912


 Ornates and Philbyi / CITES proposal 03/25/2010


Mattyh wrote:
“got them young they now produce about 3 batches of eggs a year and thats just how they bred I dont force them.”

Troy Wrote:
Wow that is amazing? I am just getting back into breeding Uromastyx this year and I am interested in your statement that your are producing 3 batches of eggs a year. What species are they?

Hi Troy the Uros are Sudanese Uromastyx (U. ocellata) I’ve had them for quite some time, but am also breeding Moroccan Uromastyx (U. acanthinuris) and shound have my batches this year and also chuckwallas

Do you house you Uromastyx together 100 percent of the time?

they live togeather 100% of the time and have many hides for that time they have issues

Do you brumate them several times a year to get this result or is it naturally occurring? I would worry about burning out the female with here having so many clutches that she would not have time to recuperate.

I Brumate them to make sure the Female gets some rest and to feed her up I only ever drop the day to 4.5 hours a day and it gets just as hot as during the summer for this short amount of time to allow them to bask, I have found that they do tend to eat still and are able to digest the food however there is no attempt at breeding so she get plenty of recuperation. and time to recover from any breeding to be fair my uros tend to get alot of food each day.

Mattyh wrote:
Well all I can say is more fool you, if your a reptile keeper then this is always a bad thing, first they do a few animals then it is alot easier to get the rest of the species on the list.

Troy Wrote:
I disagree I feel it could be a good thing and I even support the up listing of all Uromastyx species from Appendix II to Appendix I.
Seems like it would help protect them in the wild and it would greatly
reduce the exportation of wild caught Uromastyx. I support captive
breeding Uromastyx to fulfill the demand for Uromastyx in the pet trade, instead of importing thousands of them a year. I feel if people had no other place to get Uromastyx then from breeders that the Uromastyx would end up
with a lot better chance of survival in captivity. Plus it would force breeders to support captive breeding and to continue to improve methods of caring for and breeding Uromastyx instead of looking to wild caught imports to fulfill the need for Uromastyx.

Please understand I love Uros if CITES did actually protect animals then it would be a good thing but in reality it doesnt, because there is no worth in the animals there is no protection.

Lindsay wrote:
"CITES only effects shipments between countries, not within any country.
I was surprised to see that TRAFFIC recommended opposing the proposal.
Lindsay"

Troy Wrote:
Hello Lindsay my friend.
Yes it surprised me as well. I read parts of the opposing article
you sent me and I still do not understanding why they oppose it?
Seems like they are saying Ornates and philbyi are not in danger
right this second. Seems to me that they will be in danger in the near
future if they aren’t in danger now. And since when is philbyi a subspecies of ornatus?

Kindest regards,

Troy "uroranch"



02/07/10  05:57pm

 #2121289


Mattyh
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  Message To: Obi Carl Kenobi   In reference to Message Id: 2121273


 Ornates and Philbyi / CITES proposal 03/25/2010


So what are you saying exactly? do you support the illegal trade of animals? because it seems that you think that if they are allowed to continue being illegally shipped in horrible conditions that this is the only way we can "protect" them.

My point was that i think they should moderate numbers being imported so we can still introduce new bloodlines and keep the pet trade healthy. But protect the Wild animals by improving habitat conditions and setting up breeding programs. Im not saying that CITES will do this (it would be great if they cared that much) but i feel im allowed my opinion and im just showing my concern.

Hi mate no you misunderstand me of course I do not support Illegal imports but that is what happens once animals go onto CITES 1 because the cost of that type of animal sky rockets, if the unlucky animal is part of the Chinese medicine trade well you might as well not even have CITES, they can’t do a thing because China isn’t signed up to it.
It’s simple really if you want to protect something in this world then it has to have monetary value if it doesn’t then its not worth the time and effort to protect that just seems to be the world we live in I’m not saying that its right but that’s the way it is so, we need to protect animals by giving them worth.

But all these do-gooders live in another world one were they punish a small minority because it is easy and makes it look like they are doing something and allow the main culprits to continue doing what they like. A world where if you stop the export of an animal or make it so expensive its not legally worth doing, animals all of a sudden thrives and their habitats are protected. I’m not sure if the URO is part of the Chinese medicine trade but if it is then the pet trade will take a very small percentage anyways and the rest will be taken by them.
CITES II should be good enough and they should enforce that more stringently and pushing Traders to be more proactive in animals protection and care, farm breeding projects etc. but they don’t so how is Putting animals onto CITES 1 any better all they then do is make the animal worthless to the average legal trader.

To protect animals we must first understand Humans.

To be fair you have put what I have been arguing yes there does need to be control but not CITES 1 type control.

And heres the thing if I was a bad person then I’d be more intrested in them being put onto CITES1 because I can make more money that way. However I’m not but I understand Humans and how this world works, protection for our animals will only happen if they are worth something to the local people if they not worth anything then there will never be any protection for them or there habitat that is just human nature.

regards

matt



02/07/10  06:45pm

 #2121439


Obi Carl Kenobi
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  Message To: Mattyh   In reference to Message Id: 2121289


 Ornates and Philbyi / CITES proposal 03/25/2010

To Matt,

My mistake, i dont know much about the CITES way of working. I dont support the illegal importation of animals but can see where you are coming from. I just wish there was a way of protecting them properly.

carl



02/08/10  06:51am


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