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 #218299


Shyirishgirl
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 Uro heaven

this is a pic of my seven uros....all living together happily.....hope you like them...



01/10/05  6:21pm
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 #218585


Frocto
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  Message To: Shyirishgirl   In reference to Message Id: 218299


 Uro heaven

What is that Uropile on the geryi?
How many malis is that in there? Do you have any problems with dominance issues or more than one male?
Cute little boogers



01/10/05  10:21pm
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 #218598


Ashmo75
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  Message To: Frocto   In reference to Message Id: 218585


 Uro heaven

awww....adorable :D the title of the message was "Uro heaven" and i wasn’t sure if it was going to be a happy or sad post. :P but this is nice



01/10/05  10:47pm
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 #218864


Keyatra
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  Message To: Shyirishgirl   In reference to Message Id: 218299


 Uro heaven

WHat dose the rest of the cage look like? I trying to find more cool things to put in my cage.



01/11/05  10:17am
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 #218890


Shyirishgirl
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  Message To: Keyatra   In reference to Message Id: 218864


 Uro heaven

the viv is 6 foot long....sand based....it has rocks....logs....bark....bedding....caves and 2 large sand pits to dig in......i have 3 malis....2 red nigers and 2 yellows.....4 females and three males....was a little bit of nipping when i first put them together but after a couple of days they were all fine.....ill post better pics when i get them



01/11/05  10:57am
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 #219090


FutureCROChunter
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  Message To: Shyirishgirl   In reference to Message Id: 218890


 Uro heaven

I would also love to see the rest of the cage AND if you could, one of your yellow Nigerian females(?)
Because I bought mine as a Mali, but I have been told she is a Yellow Niger, so I would like to see an adult.

Thanks!
Steven



01/11/05  4:31pm
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 #219728


Shyirishgirl
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  Message To: FutureCROChunter   In reference to Message Id: 219090


 Uro heaven

will post pics soon



01/12/05  5:41am
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 #219845


Pogos grandma
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  Message To: Shyirishgirl   In reference to Message Id: 219728


 Uro heaven

What’s the temp in your uros’ enclosure? I’m curious to know the reason why they’re all stacked together, is it because they’re trying to keep warm or just the way they are when it’s too crowded. I only have the one uro in a 36"x16"x18" and she roams so I’ve never seen the "crowding" until now.



01/12/05  11:30am
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 #220110


Shyirishgirl
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  Message To: Pogos   In reference to Message Id: 219845


 Uro heaven

this is not crowding.....they do roam but they also stack like bearded dragons.....its a good thing as it shows they’re all getting on !!!...the heat is about 100 at one end....90 at the other end and the middle is cooler....this is a few more pics....hope you like !!!





01/12/05  6:09pm
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 #220143


Uro_fan
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  Message To: Shyirishgirl   In reference to Message Id: 220110


 Uro heaven

Unless I am missing something…. you cannot possibly be providing the proper basking spot temperature with the lighting and height shown in this photo.

My guess is that you see stacking not because they like each other but because they are directly under the heat source which is much too low in temperature. They are trying to get closer to the bulb.

How and where are you measuring your ambient temperatures?

I disagree with you on the crowding. I have six six-foot enclosures that appear to be more than double the width of yours and I put no more than three uromastyx in each of my enclosures.

Most breeders and reputable uromastyx people will tell you that it is not wise to put more than one male in an enclosure of this size- putting three is a potential recipe for disaster. Then again, with lower than adequate temperatures- the animals will be more lethargic and less prone to ‘normal’ activity such as territorial aggression and fighting.



01/12/05  6:40pm
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 #220630


Shyirishgirl
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  Message To: Uro_fan   In reference to Message Id: 220143


 Uro heaven

sorry but i disagree with you...my uros ive had for a long time and not one of them has either been sick stressed or not eating....also the room you are looking at has 70+ reptiles in it so the overall temp of the room is hot....my uros always stack whether in duos or trios and all the uros that i know do the same thing.....mine are very happy ..very healthy and im not gonna change it.....i diliberatley take photos of them stacking because it is cute not because they spend 24 hours a day like that !!!!



01/13/05  7:19am
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 #220680


Uro_fan
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  Message To: Shyirishgirl   In reference to Message Id: 220630


 Uro heaven

Yes, we do definitely disagree.

I also have had uros a long time and have spent years researching and documenting data on these animals. You ’think’ your uros are not sick or stressed but this is only your guess. These animals can live for years in less than optimal conditions and not show real apparent signs of poor health until it is too late. Just looking at the posture and level of alertness of your animals reminds me of cooled wild caught specimens that have not yet acclimated . I am willing to bet that your gradient is not ideal nor is the basking spot close to being correct. From the photo, it does not appear that you even offer a basking spot. The closest items to the heat shroud are the play sand container and metal stand- both of which seem to be a far distance from the actual heat source and the area where your animals seem to be crowding to try and get more heat.

Even if the overall temp of your room is warm, this does not address the basking spot temperature that I mentioned which is critical. From your photo, it also appears that you might be using a dial temp gauge placed high up on the enclosure close to the heat source for reading temperatures. If this is the case, I would suggest purchasing a digital thermometer and taking temperatures an inch or so from the substrate.

You claim that you take photos of your uromastyx stacking because you think it’s cute. Well, take a look at the few photos you shot and notice how they are all stacking right under the heat source by the metal platform in all of your photos. This is not cute to me, this is them trying to get warm. You state that all of your uromastyx stack and all of the uromastyx you know stack. I have 40+ uromastyx and mine do not regularly stack. Maybe this is because I offer them a large enough space with proper temperatures and basking spots and do not overcrowd my enclosures.

In any event, you continue claiming your uromastyx are ‘very’ happy and you post that they are in uro heaven. I personally do not think you are even close to heaven and I am sure your uromastyx would probably agree. Read your animals behavior, look at their appearance compared to photos of uromastyx in favorable conditions, take specific temperature readings, do some research on adequate temps and give these animals a proper basking spot to adequately digest their food. Saying you are not going to look into what is advised and that you are NOT going to change anything gives me the impression that you are a younger person more interested in bragging about the number of animals they own rather than taking the time to learn about them and give them the proper care.

If you want a forum that ignores proper husbandry and is mainly out there to hold hands, gush over cute pictures, and apply human emotions and touchy feely stuff to their animals- there is a rather large and well known site already in existence that does this. However, this forum does not ignore red flags, gives honest and to the point advice and opinions without sugar coating anything. The members of this forum are more interested in the welfare of the animals than making forum pals.

If you want to keep doing things your way without regard to what you see or read then continue to do so. I would just suggest not jumping into this forum to brag to others that this is ‘heaven’ or try to give others the impression that your husbandry practices are the ideal way to do things when many can plainly see that it is not.




01/13/05  10:33am
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 #220685


Gromph baenre
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  Message To: Shyirishgirl   In reference to Message Id: 220630


 Uro heaven

Uro Heaven,
I can appreciate your passion towards your animals. However, passion should be accompanied by a sincere desire to provide an optimum living environment for those animals. I am by no means attempting to tell you how to keep your animals, nor do I feel that Uro Fan was trying to tell you how to keep your animals. She was offering some very sound advice.
It is well documented that the effects of stress are not indicated in Uros or most reptiles for that matter, until the animal is knocking on deaths door. Your specimens may appear to be healthy, happy, and thriving, but when the full effects of stress, due to inadequate temps, insufficient hiding spaces, and territorial dominance come to fruitation, you will have a quick , uncontrollable, downward spiral.
I wish you the best of luck with your animals. Let us hope that your screen name is not a self fulfilling prophecy for the destination of the animals in your charge.

Best regards,

Carson Grindstaff



01/13/05  10:56am
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 #220746


Shyirishgirl
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  Message To: Uro_fan   In reference to Message Id: 220680


 Uro heaven

thanks for the info but im 36 years old have had reptiles for 10+ years and my collection is more than 70 animals....i live in ireland where the climate is somewhat different and every single animal that is brought into my home is researched thoroughly before it is brought into its enclosure...i would also like to point out that all my animals are vet checked for any illness or problems that may occour....to suggest that im young and inexperienced offends me....i have 2 expert herptologist on hand 24 hours a day for my reptiles and i spend a lot of money keeping these creatures content.....and as for the metal stand???? i dont have one.....i do appreciate advice given to me thats why i am here but sorry if i say you seem to be a little patronising to me......im sorry but i still say my uros are fine.....they do everything as normal....just because i post one or two pics that people dont agree with doesnt mean my animals are sick....i look forward to your reply....



01/13/05  12:55pm
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 #220788


Gromph baenre
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  Message To: Shyirishgirl   In reference to Message Id: 220630


 Uro heaven

ShyIrishGirl,
My apologies for improperly addressing you with the term Uro Heaven in my previous posting. I still would like to encourage you to take the advice that Uro Fan has offered. If you chose not to, that is your decision to do so. However, if something should happen that your animals start to diminish, and you were to come here asking for advice, do not be surprised if your pleas are not met with deaf ears.
Not that you have asked for my advice, but I would like to point out a few items that Uro Fan went over. I encourage you to procure two items. The first being a temp gun. Temp guns are by far the most accurate means to measure the "basking spot " temperature. The basking spot will be a "surface temperature". It can also give you the temperature of your specimens as well. The second item I would encourage you to procure would be a digital thermometer with a probe. The digital thermometer is going to give you your ambient or air temperatures. This item is paramount in measuring and helping you to establish the proper temperature gradient for your enclosure. If you have been relying upon the analog dial thermometer for your readings, then inaccuracies will abound in your measurements.
Just as a little food for thought, it is my understanding that the only species of uromastyx that shows a tendency to form in colonies(communities if you will) is uromastyx hardwicki. Most successful breeders of Uromastyx usually maintain their breeding stock in trios, not groups of four or more. I am by no means stating that this is your intention. I offer this information as a means of comparison, because I feel that in order to sustain thriving, healthy uromastyx, one of the first steps is to provide an environment as close to their native habitats as possible.
Again, I wish you the best of luck with your Uros, and I hope that you will find it in your best interests to procure the items I listed, in hopes that those items will assist you on improving your husbandry practices.

Best regards,


Carson Grindstaff



01/13/05  1:46pm
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 #220842


Uro_fan
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  Message To: Shyirishgirl   In reference to Message Id: 220746


 Uro heaven

I stated that your actions give the impression you are a young person. I am still of the opinion that your actions resemble those of a young person more interested in collecting animals than getting the husbandry exact before moving on to the next acquisition.

Yes, you stated that you have 70 animals several times now. We have established that you own a wide variety of animals with different temperature requirements all being kept in the same hot room together. Yes, I got that. (Do you get me?)

You have two expert ‘herpetologist’ on hand twenty four hours a day helping you with your reptiles and you do not even have a proper basking spot for your uromastyx? If I were you, I would ask to see their advanced degree in herpetology. I would love to tell you that I hold a degree in herpetology or veterinary science or that I am an astronaut but unfortunately I am not so I will not say that I am.

The object that I referred to as a metal stand is the item sitting directly behind the sand box about 2 feet below the heat source. Regardless of whether it is a metal stand, plastic stand, platform with feet, wall mounted unit, small trampoline, (just supplement the correct name for the object) the point still stands. This appears to be the closest item to the heat and your uros are shown stacking on one another in each of your photos trying to get closer to that heat source. I am a little surprised that one of your 24 hour herpetologist did not catch this.

If I seem a little patronizing to you then maybe it is because I view your post titled ‘uro heaven” to be a little arrogant especially in light of the fact that in my opinion the photo illustrates some poor husbandry practices. Regardless, it was not until you answered a few questions from another forum member about the number of uros you had in this enclosure and why your uros were all on top of each other did I respond. Your matter of fact statements “this is not crowding” and “it’s a good thing” prompted my post showing that I disagree with what you are telling others on this forum. When a few things (not all) were pointed out such as concerns on temperature and basking spot, you simply state you are not going to change anything- period. Most people would want to know what could possibly be wrong, might come back with some questions, may even come back with some actual data or facts (not feelings) to support their differing conclusions on husbandry – not you. You seem to be here to point out ‘your’ interpretation of heaven and then when someone questions the validity of your interpretation you just make subjective remarks such as “it’s not crowding and it’s a good thing”. Without giving the advice presented to you a second (or even 1st) thought- you tell everyone you are not about to change anything.

As I said before, by all means continue doing what you do with your 70 reptiles and two herpetologist, just don’t call it uro heaven on this forum and expect people not to speak up if it looks more like uro hell to them.



01/13/05  3:25pm
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 #220914


Shyirishgirl
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  Message To: Gromph   In reference to Message Id: 220788


 Uro heaven

carson i thank you for your polite and informative reply to me....it is much appreciated....i will certaintly review my uros.....hope i make their lives a little more pleasant.....id just like to tell you that at one end of the viv there is a 250w heat lamp....at the other end there is a 100w heat lamp....they also have heat mats in their enclosure....i have one of my reptile guys calling tomorrow to check ALL my animals as i now feel i have failed them....i have never had a problem with my animals and the ones that i do have on breeding programs have bred sucessfully....so i must be doing something right.....as for everyone on the forum well done....but i think ill back out and go elsewhere as i feel im being attacked for cruelty......again carson thanks for the tips



01/13/05  5:05pm
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 #220995


Uro_fan
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  Message To: Shyirishgirl   In reference to Message Id: 220914


 Uro heaven

I am sorry you feel that you were attacked but honestly, this is far from my definition of attack.

In my first post you were simply given very honest opinions and feedback and you decided to instantly and firmly plant your feet in the ground taking the stance that absolutely nothing was wrong with your promotion of ‘uro heaven’. Had you elected to listen to a few question posed to you such as how do you measure your ambient or had you addressed what your basking temperature was, then maybe there would have been more open dialogue. Instead, your attitude was immediately “mine are very happy ..very healthy and im not gonna change it”. This does not sit well with me when I happen to disagree with the statements you are promoting to others. The criticism I leveled towards you was directed more towards your attitude on husbandry rather than the husbandry itself. This is evident by the sequence of posts. Not once during this entire thread did you seem concerned about whether or not your husbandry may be incorrect only defending your current practices even though they might be flawed. I am glad to see in this last post to Carson that you are willing to have more of an open mind and will look into some of the concerns raised. It is too bad that this post did not occur a little higher in the thread.

I was a little confused with your last statement to me indicating you were looking forward to my reply. Evidentially that was only if I agreed with you?

If you are truly looking for in-depth discussion and information on uromastyx while keeping an open mind to new ideas and always questioning your current husbandry pratices, then I think that this forum might be of benefit to you and would encourage you to stay.



01/13/05  6:50pm
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 #221130


WaveRunner
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  Message To: Uro_fan   In reference to Message Id: 220995


 Uro heaven

I am quite certain I taste blood from biting my tounge so hard.

For a second could we take the focus off of the number or Uros or the husbandry and simply look at the size of the cage and lighting. I am asking this not as an attack but out of curiosity. What exactly is the basking spot surface temp in that enclosure, what is the ambient temp in the warm and cool end? If you search the web you are going to find many different oppinions of the correct temperatures for a Uro cage, but most they fall pretty close to each other. The point of my question is this, I have a much smaller and shallower cage than you (36x18x16) and it is currently taking me 3 lights to acheive proper temps. This is not counting the 4th UVB light, which you do not mention having, but for sake of argument we will assume you suppliment with powdered D3 so disregard that.

This isint an attack, it is a legitiment question for you asking you to post the temps of your enclosure. If you can truly achieve the proper temps with just two lights I would LOVE to know what Brand/type they are as I would like to be able to heat my cage with only one or two lights... i just don’t think it is possible.

I am sorry for any feeling of attack you may feel, but it’s like this... most of us here care more than anyone could explain about our pets and a lot of us have spent a good amount of time researching these animals and have a passion for helping others care for their Uros. Anytime someone comes on here saying something that contridicts what most people,website,breeders etc.. hold as truth they are going to be questioned. Especially if the only data they have to support their thoughts is "my uros seem happy".

I remember all of the bad advice i was given from petstores and others in the area when I first purchased my Uro. If i had came on this forum with the close minded attitude that you seem to have, I am quite certan I would be the proud owner of one decaying Uro corpse. I am simply asking you to be more open to other ideas or atleast be able to supply some sort of hard data for what you are supporting.

I am looking forward to discussing lighting with you.



01/13/05  9:12pm
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 #224315


Bearded_bob
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  Message To: WaveRunner   In reference to Message Id: 221130


 Uro heaven

Shyirishgirl
im not an exert on uros(ony had mine 2 months) but i have talked to many experts, and done my homework on these creatures. I agree with Uro-fan on almost all of what he says. I noticed that one of ur heat lamps is hanging down. Cant u lower it closer to the basking spot.
I have been in your shoes on the bearded dragon form-so i kno how u feel
get over it and try to improve. listen to uro fan has to say. the reason ur being attacked, is because u wont listen. Uro-fan and others are getting frusterated wit u and this is what happens.
also, could u post a pic of the entire room. i just want to see these 70+ creatures.
i do think ur cage looks nice though. just polish it up. also, u an say ur cage is perfect, not many people can do that. my guess is even Uro-fans cages arnt perfect, but they are probobably good.



01/17/05  4:13pm
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 #225237


Shyirishgirl
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  Message To: Bearded_bob   In reference to Message Id: 224315


 Uro heaven

just a short reply....i took everyones advice onboard....have made changes.....lowered heatlamps and have 4 differently positioned electronic tempuratutes situated round the tank...i also have removed the malis back to their original enclosure.......so far they have split up but do still pile from time to time.....much more active too....so i come eating humble pie and thank you all for your support.....thanx!!!



01/18/05  3:30pm
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 #225255


Uro_fan
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  Message To: Shyirishgirl   In reference to Message Id: 225237


 Uro heaven

I want to be the first to welcome you back.
No need to eat humble pie here.

Glad to hear that you have made some changes and activity has improved. Keep us updated and don’t hesitate to post questions. At least you know that you will get some honest (and persistant) feedback from this group.

One more quick mention.... sometimes when temps have not been optimal and then are increased- opportunistic pathogens (including parasites) can flourish and become out of control. Just keep a close eye out for the next month or two.



01/18/05  3:57pm
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 #225265


WaveRunner
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  Message To: Uro_fan   In reference to Message Id: 225255


 Uro heaven

Welcome back! Let us know if theres anything we can do!



01/18/05  4:19pm
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