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Evlew Vers Evlew Rtl402 Vers Evlew Vers |
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Evlew View Profile |
My Mali Uromastyx died. Looking for an explanation.
I use to have a 4’ fixture with a UVB bulb, but I can’t find them locally anymore. So I recently switched to this. It’s about a foot 12-14" from the Uro. I primarily fed it Kale with occasional sprinkle of canary seed. I also used a calcium supplement a couple times a month, it seemed to be moving a little less efficient lately. Although, this could have been my imagination, or paranoia. I would occasionally (maybe once or twice a year give him a few crickets). I also gave peas on occasion, but the favorite was big leafs of kale that it could whip around and tear, it especially liked to eat while I was holding it. I fed him kale every day. Occasionally dandilion greens when I could get kale. It’s substrate was a mix of vitasand and coconut shell. I KNOW I KNOW!!! I should have sifted this out years ago, but it never presented a problem. It’s routine consisted of waking up after about an hour of the lights being on. It would then bask and hide out throughout the day. I would usually feed it when I came home for lunch after the lights had been on for a while. Sometimes it would run into his hide when he saw me come in with the dogs, other times he like to just look at the dogs. It usually went to the hide/bed shorty before the heat lamp kicked off. Sometimes after it kicked off (I would leave the UVB bulb on for a little while after the heat lamp went off as to present a evening effect.) Lately it seemed very active and hungry. I would say it was out of the hide at least half the day, but it’s hard to say as I have to work. But it seemed to always be out when I was around. It basked quite a bit. It was definitely hungry every day lately. However in the past year, it has seemed to be having constipation. One time it got really fast and I actually had to coax a massive excrement out of it, under warm running water in the sink. (I didn’t let him sit in the water, just rubbed it’s belly with my thumb towards it’s bottom end. After that the constipation seemed to persist, but at least he could pass on it’s own. (several excrement clumped together sometimes). This eventually passed and it was back to making regular excrement at regular (almost daily) intervals. This last year he was really scared me. A couple times I’d come home on my lunch break or after work and find it on it’s back with legs in the air. I thought it was dead the first time I saw him. I went to touch it and it kicked like a mule. I believe I flipped it back over and it went and hid. (I don’t think it flipped itself back over). This happened again once more but, no recent scares. The weird part was, it didn’t look like it fell of flipped off something in the terrarium, it’s like it put itself on the back. He also didn’t do it under the heat lamp on these occasions. My girlfriend and I thought everything was on the up and up... I mentioned to her that I want to have my buddy design a new terrarium, that would offer more space, etc. In the mean time she rearranged his environment to make it a little more spacious until the new terrarium came about. We were even going to get him his (bi)annual treat of crickets. The terrarium itself did not move, nor the lighting. We handled it at least once a weak. sometimes lettings it run around, other times just keeping it on our shirt and stroking it gently. It has never been to the vet as all the issues in the past seemed to correct themselves with time. When I came home two days ago, I fed him at lunch and returned to work. It ate too, I could tell my the change in position of the leaf. However when I came home 4 hours later, my beloved pal was flipped over almost directly under the heat lamp. He wasn’t breathing. I tried to cool him off with water, but it was too late. I was crushed. My poor buddy suffered and internally heated to death. I felt like if I had only gotten home a little sooner I could have saved it’s life. So damn depressing.... I noticed he had fresh excrement, a few pellets in a row. (This was the most fecal matter I have seen at once lately). I also noticed a large puddle of urine and another small puddle of urine near by. Now for my questions.... I’ve seen multiple uro’s flip themselves back over.... why did mine do this in the first place and why didn’t it flip itself back over? (I’ve only ever heard of playing possum and telling the male it doesn’t want to breed, but neither of these seem the case) I’m almost certain of this as it seemed too far from the basking rock (which only sits 2.5" off the substrate at the highest point) to flip off. This may sound stupid, but did it kill itself? I saw nothing unusual about it’s body or anything... It seemed so happy lately. Maybe there was something I couldn’t see though, perhaps it was suffering and I didn’t know? Also, what is the lifespan of these animals? I can’t seemed to find a solid answer anywhere. Most agree at least 15 years though? I’m so depressed that it suffered and cooked to death under the light. Also, I never really knew if it was a male or female, is there anyway to tell? If I post a pic could someone tell me? Here’s the terrarium
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| 08/02/12 01:43pm |
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Vers View Profile |
Message To: Evlew In reference to Message Id: 2275329 My Mali Uromastyx died. Looking for an explanation.
-Although it’s possible, Uros should generally not be housed together, especially when introduced as adults. This not only will cause high stress levels but may also result in fatal injuries. -Analog thermometers are notoriously inaccurate and should never be trusted. There is a good chance the thermal gradient you were providing was off the entire time you owned the animal. -The UVB bulb you were using is not recommended for these and many other animals. Compact fluorescent UVB bulbs have been known to cause serious health issues in the past. A lack of UVB exposure can cause metabolic bone disease, which leads to a lack in mobility, bone deformities and extreme weakness. In very serious cases it can render the animal totally immobile, which directly results in death. This may be why you saw the animal on it’s back. This could have also been caused by a neurological disorder. -Kale is an absolutely awful staple food item. When fed in high quantity it can cause hyperthyroidism, which explains your uros weight. Uromastyx should only appear ’fat’ when gravid. Hyperthyroidism also causes various other health issues, like depression, fatigue, and constipation. Crickets and any other animal proteins should also have been avoided. -Your substrate choice poses a huge health risk. While you might not have seen any obvious issues it could have caused plenty of serious underlying issues. In combination with feeding primarily kale accidental ingestion of substrate can lead to constipation due to gut impaction. This can kill. -Your enclosure setup wasn’t the best. The hide you offered isn’t the best for this genus of animal and the fact that there was only one in the entire tank is also a problem. In the wild these animals tend to stick to deep burrows and or tight rock crevasses. One very short, open half log just doesn’t cut it. While the uro seemed to have lived quite a long time given the circumstances I’m sure that with better husbandry it would have lived even longer and most likely would have grown past 9", which is relatively small for an adult mali. If you ever decide to get another animal, regardless of what it is, I urge you to do all of your research prior to the animal being in your possession. For uromastyx care check out UroWiki and Deer Fern Farms for solid information. |
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| 08/02/12 02:34pm |
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Evlew View Profile |
Message To: Vers In reference to Message Id: 2275340 My Mali Uromastyx died. Looking for an explanation.
The time it was introduced to another Uro was 5+ years ago and lasted only a couple weeks before I removed the new one. So it was not ever housed with another Uro except for that short period of time. Point taken on the analog thermometers. I don’t think it was a heating issue. As mentioned I did have a digital that I would use on occasion to check it. The analogs seemed to be pretty close. I will reconsider using these in the future if I do get another one. The UVB bulb was only suppose to be temporary. Throughout it’s life I used regular fluorescent except this one time, because they weren’t available local. I did not know the compacts were so bad. Can you provide an explanation to this statement? I’d appreciate it. He was mostly under that side of the terrarium since it was warm and should have been able to get enough exposure. It also had some direct sunlight during parts of the day. It didn’t have deformities or weakness that I could tell but, it did seem to be a little slow on it’s turns (which is why we reorganized it).. other than that it could haul butt up and down the length of it still. It was not always in this large of terrarium, and I think it’s smaller size might be attributed to being kept in a smaller environment before. I guess there is a lot of conflicting information out there, because I was told Kale was one of the best foods and offered the best ratio of required nutrients. Well that is unfortunate if it really is bad for it. He was only fat for a brief period of constipation. He wasn’t like that at all any time recent. His shape and weight seemed to be normal in my eyes. (I personally feel like the constipation was from something else besides the Kale. Either way it was only temporary, and wasn’t a recent issue. I know crickets should have been avoided, but when purchasing the animal years ago, I was told it was ok, and I actually fed him crickets quite a bit before I learned they were not the best thing to be feeding it. I took it off crickets but felt bad because it really seemed to like them. That is why I would give it a few once or twice a year. I don’t think it was ever enough to cause harm, considering how much it ate them in the early years of it’s life. (perhaps that could have stunted the growth as well) I agree with you on the substrate, but don’t think this was the case. I understand my enclosure could have been better. However you are looking at the newly modified version my gf did. I didn’t check her work as it was only the day before and I wasn’t home. That log was usually on the cooler end of the enclosure and there is actually a second hide in there, it’s the thing that looks like a rock pile. granted it was a little tight, it seemed to like it. at one point i tried a larger one and it never used it, so I took it out. When you say "given the circumstances" you make it sound as if everything was done wrong and this was inevitable. While I can appreciate your concern for the animal I will have to respectfully disagree of course. I can assure you it seemed to be a very happy and active uro, eating and digesting regularly with good amounts of activity. I think you have taken some things out of proportion (like overlooking the second hide and the fact that this enclosure picture was only like that for a day before passing, it was a bit different before). I understand my care taking could have been improved but, whose couldn’t? To me it just looked as some sort of accident or suicide. I was more or less looking for an explanation as to how it got on it’s back in the first place and why it didn’t get off it, when it was still perfectly mobile for the most part. Thanks for your response and I will definitely update my methods and research if I decide to get another. I think a lot of the problem was lack of (and conflicting) information at the time of receiving the animal. As far as my other questions.... what is the most accurate and accepted life span of this animal? Is there any way to tell if mine was a male or female just by picture? |
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| 08/02/12 03:31pm |
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Rtl402 View Profile |
Message To: Evlew In reference to Message Id: 2275352 My Mali Uromastyx died. Looking for an explanation.
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| 08/02/12 07:02pm |
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Vers View Profile |
Message To: Evlew In reference to Message Id: 2275352 My Mali Uromastyx died. Looking for an explanation.
Quote: Thanks for the response, and I am not arguing, but I think I may have been vague on some things.
The time it was introduced to another Uro was 5+ years ago and lasted only a couple weeks before I removed the new one. So it was not ever housed with another Uro except for that short period of time. Quote: Right, it’s the fact that the three were introduced in the first place that I was referring to. Generally speaking this is not a good idea. Quote: I did not know the compacts were so bad. Can you provide an explanation to this statement? I’d appreciate it. He was mostly under that side of the terrarium since it was warm and should have been able to get enough exposure. It also had some direct sunlight during parts of the day.
Visit UVguide and check out their explanation--it will save me a bit of time explaining things :) Quote: It didn’t have deformities or weakness that I could tell but, it did seem to be a little slow on it’s turns (which is why we reorganized it).. other than that it could haul butt up and down the length of it still.
If you never had an xray done there is simply no way to know for sure. There must have been a reason behind the animal flipping over on to it’s back and not being able to straighten itself out. Like I said, weakness is one, a neurological issue is another. Quote: It was not always in this large of terrarium, and I think it’s smaller size might be attributed to being kept in a smaller environment before.
Was this detail mentioned in your first post? If so I missed it. What size was the previous enclosure and for how long was it housed in it? Quote: I guess there is a lot of conflicting information out there, because I was told Kale was one of the best foods and offered the best ratio of required nutrients. Well that is unfortunate if it really is bad for it. He was only fat for a brief period of constipation. He wasn’t like that at all any time recent. His shape and weight seemed to be normal in my eyes. (I personally feel like the constipation was from something else besides the Kale. Either way it was only temporary, and wasn’t a recent issue.
There is a TON of bad information out there, and diet is right at the top. Kale should be fed infrequently to never...I stick with the latter for my animals. Quote: I know crickets should have been avoided, but when purchasing the animal years ago, I was told it was ok, and I actually fed him crickets quite a bit before I learned they were not the best thing to be feeding it. I took it off crickets but felt bad because it really seemed to like them. That is why I would give it a few once or twice a year. I don’t think it was ever enough to cause harm, considering how much it ate them in the early years of it’s life. (perhaps that could have stunted the growth as well)
Again, chalk it up to outdated information. These animals are 100% herbivore. That said, feeding crickets every once in a while will not stunt it’s growth. Quote: I agree with you on the substrate, but don’t think this was the case.
There is simply no way you can know this...the only way is to have a post mortem done. Like you said, the animal was showing clear signs of constipation--this is an indication of impaction. Quote: I understand my enclosure could have been better. However you are looking at the newly modified version my gf did. I didn’t check her work as it was only the day before and I wasn’t home. That log was usually on the cooler end of the enclosure and there is actually a second hide in there, it’s the thing that looks like a rock pile. granted it was a little tight, it seemed to like it. at one point i tried a larger one and it never used it, so I took it out.
Right, but based on the image neither hide is ideal. A large flat stone with a 1.5-2" space below it or a simple tunnel would have served much better. Quote: When you say "given the circumstances" you make it sound as if everything was done wrong and this was inevitable. While I can appreciate your concern for the animal I will have to respectfully disagree of course. I can assure you it seemed to be a very happy and active uro, eating and digesting regularly with good amounts of activity. I think you have taken some things out of proportion (like overlooking the second hide and the fact that this enclosure picture was only like that for a day before passing, it was a bit different before). I understand my care taking could have been improved but, whose couldn’t? To me it just looked as some sort of accident or suicide. I was more or less looking for an explanation as to how it got on it’s back in the first place and why it didn’t get off it, when it was still perfectly mobile for the most part.
It’s fine if you want to disagree with me but you would just be choosing denial over the facts. The information I provided you is based off of years upon years of data collected and brought forth by both researchers and keepers alike. You just simply cannot argue against that. My primary post wasn’t meant to offend you in any way, but rather highlight possible factors that contributed to your animals death. I can assure you I’m not making any of it up. Quote: Thanks for your response and I will definitely update my methods and research if I decide to get another. I think a lot of the problem was lack of (and conflicting) information at the time of receiving the animal.
This would be the wise thing to do. I provided two sources--definitely check them out. Quote: As far as my other questions.... what is the most accurate and accepted life span of this animal? Is there any way to tell if mine was a male or female just by picture?
Captive lifespan will definitely vary. It’s been reported that some specimens lived up to or past 30 years but that seems like a bit of a stretch for captive animals. I would say a properly supported animal would have no problem living 15-20 years but this is only going off what I’ve read. As for the sex of the animal, perhaps if you had a couple full lengths and a shot of the vent area. Mali’s can be tricky as some females can show male coloration--these are referred to as ’male-mimics’. |
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| 08/02/12 07:13pm |
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Evlew View Profile |
Message To: Vers In reference to Message Id: 2275396 My Mali Uromastyx died. Looking for an explanation.
Quote: Right, it’s the fact that the three were introduced in the first place that I was referring to. Generally speaking this is not a good idea.
They were never all three introduced at one time, but ya I get your point. Quote: Visit UVguide and check out their explanation--it will save me a bit of time explaining things :)
Can you at least post a link to the specific information. There seems to be quite a bit on that site. Quote: If you never had an xray done there is simply no way to know for sure.
understood Quote: a neurological issue is another.
This statement makes me wonder if that is the case. It seems the only thing random enough to explain it in my eyes. Quote: Was this detail mentioned in your first post? If so I missed it. What size was the previous enclosure and for how long was it housed in it?
No, sorry for not mentioning it, I always knew it was a little small, but didn’t think to mention it. previously from the time i got to about the first 3 years it was kept in a 24"x12" enclosure. Quote: There is a TON of bad information out there, and diet is right at the top. Kale should be fed infrequently to never...I stick with the latter for my animals.
Understood. I think at the time I received it, just about everyone was making a webpage, whether the information was correct or not. I guess I should have stayed more up to date through the years though. I also bought it at a petco or somewhere. Their information sheet was VERY inaccurate. This seems to be a common problem. I will only purchase from a breeder next time. Quote: Again, chalk it up to outdated information. These animals are 100% herbivore. That said, feeding crickets every once in a while will not stunt it’s growth.
It wasn’t the initial feeding that concerned me, but the fact that when it was younger I gave it a pretty steady diet of crickets... at least weakly. That’s what made me concerned that I may have stunted it. Quote: There is simply no way you can know this...the only way is to have a post mortem done. Like you said, the animal was showing clear signs of constipation--this is an indication of impaction.
I suppose you’re right. Is it possible for the constipation to clear while the impaction remains? Quote: Right, but based on the image neither hide is ideal. A large flat stone with a 1.5-2" space below it or a simple tunnel would have served much better.
I will take that into future consideration. I don’t think this this is enough cause for death, however. Quote: It’s fine if you want to disagree with me but you would just be choosing denial over the facts.
I agree with you on a lot of the issues addressed. I just don’t believe them to have all attributed to a sudden and random death. (Except for possibly the nuerologic condition or impaction). You did not offend me and I expected some critical feedback. I only feel bad that I was giving it Kale and did not know about any issues with CF lighting... it was merely a lack of education and choice at the store. Is it common for them to flip on their back and die? If so that would make me understand a little more that it could have been a slow build up to death. But that fact it was so sudden and rapid makes it hard for me to believe this was a slow build up to an inevitable death (I mean you should have seen it the hours before, you may have questioned my setup, but I doubt you would questions it’s health and activity. If flipping and dying is normal behavior though, and I am just not familiar with it, then I could believe this was still possibly a result from all the factors mentioned above. I hope that makes sense. Quote: Captive lifespan will definitely vary. It’s been reported that some specimens lived up to or past 30 years but that seems like a bit of a stretch for captive animals. I would say a properly supported animal would have no problem living 15-20 years but this is only going off what I’ve read. As for the sex of the animal, perhaps if you had a couple full lengths and a shot of the vent area. Mali’s can be tricky as some females can show male coloration--these are referred to as ’male-mimics’.
30 seemed like a stretch to me as well. I’ve heard some people go further and claim 50. It’s just so rediculous the amount of conflicting information. I was really hoping for at least 15, I guess I should’t feel too bad about a 12 year life although I would loved to have had it around for much longer. Just the fact that there is an uncertainty of life span reinforces the idea in my head that there is still much to be learned about these animals in captivity and there simply hasn’t been anyone doing it for long enough it would seem to have all the definitive answers. I don’t think I have a picture of the vent unfortunately. I already buried it. Thanks again for you response and information. |
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| 08/02/12 08:09pm |
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Vers View Profile |
Message To: Evlew In reference to Message Id: 2275410 My Mali Uromastyx died. Looking for an explanation.
Anyway, I hope you can take something away from this. Shoring up your knowledge of the genus will definitely help you and any future animals you may own in the future. |
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| 08/02/12 08:29pm |
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