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 #2279043


TheWild306
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 Infrared vs UV Lighting

So I just got my saharan 3 days ago. He is a beautiful yellow and is adjusting really well actually. Hes gotten fatter already since I got him from the pet store; which is good as he needed it. Im just wondering what is better. I have a 125w Solarglo UVA/UVB/Ultraviolet bulb in his habitat atm with a SunGlo Tight Beam 150w bulb (both Exo Terra bulbs). He seems to like it and basks under them just fine. However, Ive been reading today about infrared lighting on deerfernfarms and Im wondering if they are infact better than UV bulbs and why. What should I use? If anyone could speak from experience and let me know I’d appreciate it alot. Also I have Rep-Cal Calcium w/ D3 and Herptitive that I plan to give him once a week (I made a complete weekly schedule for diet and supplements into a shread sheet for easy reference).

Any advice is appreciated.
Thanks



09/05/12  12:50pm

 #2279044


TheWild306
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  Message To: TheWild306   In reference to Message Id: 2279043


 Infrared vs UV Lighting

Also if UV bulbs are the consensus; what are the thoughts about the Mega-Ray bulbs?



09/05/12  12:52pm

 #2279070


Vers
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  Message To: TheWild306   In reference to Message Id: 2279043


 Infrared vs UV Lighting

The difference between these bulbs is that the Solar Glo, a mercury vapor bulb, is capable of producing heat and UVB while an IR bulb creates heat without UVB. It’s the UVB band that synthesizes vitamin D3. The reason Doug Dix (Deer Fern Farms) is able to get away without using a UVB bulb is due to the fact that he provides various supplements, made by Repashy, instead. So it essentially comes down to whether or not you would like to use UVB lighting OR vitamin/dietary supplementation. Personally I’d rather take the guess work out of the equation, which is why I use UVB lighting, keeping track of UVB output by using a UV meter (Solar Meter 6.2), along with a well balanced diet. Since I’m doing so it’s not necessary for me to offer my animals any vitamin supplementation at all. The type of UVB bulb you use is also critical. While I’ve never tested Exo Terra bulbs I have tested Zoo Med’s MVB variant, titled PowerSun. Prior to switching entirely to fluorescnt UVB lighting I used the 160w version of the PowerSun, which I believed was a great bulb at the time...until I tested it. When I first got my UV meter I decided to put several PowerSuns to the test, what I found was pretty shocking. As it turns out these bulbs were only providing around 20-30 uW/cm2 of UVB at 12" while my new Arcadia t5 HO 12% bulbs were pumping out right around 200 uW/cm2. Since these two types of bulbs operate on different wavelengths/spectrums (short vs long wavelength + UV index rating) the difference is not as great at it may seem, but the fluorescent is still much more efficient and effective. It’s also worth noting that a PowerSun at 12" will likely produce too much heat, thus it would need to be moved further away which further depletes the amount of UVB that would reach the animal. Another benefit the Arcadia fluorescent bulbs hold over MVB lamps is the fact that you can setup a wider, more useful photo-gradient for the animal to choose from, essentially creating various UVB+thermal zone combinations. Check out Arcadia-reptile.com and watch the lighting videos they have posted there, specifically the video featuring Francis Baines. As for Mega-Ray, while they used to produce great UVB lamps, they have since hit a wall in the manufacturing of such bulbs. Although they claim to be somewhat back on track there have been various reports since that highlight the same inconsistency/unreliability issues the company was facing during the height of the initial manufacturing fiasco. It’s because of this that I decided to look elsewhere and having found Arcadia t5 HO fluorescent bulbs (lightyourreptiles.com) I don’t regret that decision in the slightest.



09/05/12  04:05pm

 #2279073


UROKEEPER
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  Message To: Vers   In reference to Message Id: 2279070


 Infrared vs UV Lighting

Herbivorous reptiles do not metabolize synthetic vit D well. There have been studies into this. Vit D/A can also become toxic if given too much. I agree with Vers I would provide a good varied diet and a good quality UVB/UVA source and of course good husbandry.

how much is too much? How much is too little?.... nobody really knows and it can be quite easy for an inexperienced keeper to slowly poison their animal. One thing I know fr sure if the diet is of good quality and variety and the animal is provided a good safe level UV source in the correct wavelength for d3 synthesis along with optimal basking temps the uro can manufacture and synthesis Vit D at their own pace without threat of toxicity



09/05/12  04:22pm

 #2279083


TheWild306
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  Message To: UROKEEPER   In reference to Message Id: 2279073


 Infrared vs UV Lighting

Thanks for the replies. I did stumble over a web page earlier comparing UV readings of different bulbs after 18 months I think it was and the SolarGlo was at the top of still producing a decent amount of UV. Im going to research more in florescent lighting. I think Ive managed to create a decent heat gradient in the tank atm. Hot side sits around 97-101 and cool side is usually 84-87. Basking spots vary because of the different levels Ive created but in the middle of the hotest light is 122-126. Night time usually sits around 74-77. Each side has a nice hide and he seems to really like both of them. I need to get a CHE to replace this 100w HeatGlo (red) lamp I have on the cool side. I was conflicted whether or not uromastyx would see it at night or not and believe it to be true now. So I plan to change that; don’t want to disturb him so Ive been turning it off after his lights turn off. His diet consists of Curly endive and escarole and a rotation of carrot, squash, mango, lentils, bok choy, radicchio, flowers (once I find a market for them) once a week and supplements once a week.

I wasn’t quite convinced with what doug said. I respect that hes been doing it for a long time but I tend to read a lot and then weigh pros and cons of certain aspects and make my own decision.

I need to buy a UV meter as well as IR temp gun. Ive been using my thermometer probe to check surface temps which I know Isn’t a good practice but I’m making due with what I have at the moment.



09/05/12  04:48pm

 #2279085


TheWild306
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  Message To: TheWild306   In reference to Message Id: 2279083


 Infrared vs UV Lighting

Also night temps are with 0 of the 3 lamps on. So Im not sure that I really even need to get a CHE. For some reason when my uro is on the cool side he likes to sit under the red light. Its probably the heat he likes and not the color of light however. So maybe I should just get the CHE in case its needed at night in winter.



09/05/12  04:54pm

 #2279087


Vers
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  Message To: TheWild306   In reference to Message Id: 2279083


 Infrared vs UV Lighting

I’d be very interested in seeing that study if you could relocate it. Arcadia t5 HO bulbs are also said to perform well over a long period of time. Here is a direct quote from Francis Baines, who is an active member of the UVB Meter Owners yahoo group

Quote:

"The longevity of the T5 Arcadia tubes that I have tested has been exceptionally good... only around 30% - 35% decay over a full year of use. (4,000 hours at 10-12hrs/day) "


This should easily beat most MVB lamps out there to date.

As for Doug’s husbandry, it’s tough to argue his experience with these animals and I won’t even try--what he’s doing seems to work very well for him. However, while I have the utmost respect for him, there are some aspects of his husbandry that I personally choose not to practice, namely soaking, some dietary choices as well as the choice to supplement. The idea is to do your research and then weigh the pros and cons of each decision before you make it.



09/05/12  05:15pm

 #2279095


UROKEEPER
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  Message To: Vers   In reference to Message Id: 2279087


 Infrared vs UV Lighting

do you know how much it would cost to properly light hundreds of uromastyx? huge. I believe he chooses this route because he sells. animals are not there long as far as I’m aware. I Still think he uses UV light for his breeding stock but I could be wrong. Frances Baines is not just an active member like me.....she completely runs and owns the website. She gives us precious data and hard facts no bs



09/05/12  06:35pm

 #2279096


UROKEEPER
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  Message To: Vers   In reference to Message Id: 2279087


 Infrared vs UV Lighting

"The longevity of the T5 Arcadia tubes that I have tested has been exceptionally good... only around 30% - 35% decay over a full year of use. (4,000 hours at 10-12hrs/day) "


This should easily beat most MVB lamps out there to date.


most yes....most of the reptile lighting industry has very low standards and poor quality.



09/05/12  06:37pm

 #2279110


Vers
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  Message To: UROKEEPER   In reference to Message Id: 2279095


 Infrared vs UV Lighting

I realize that and I wasn’t making any criticisms. Doug, himself, states:

Quote:

"While many if not most sites still recommend the use of a UVB producing Mercury Vapor basking bulb, after many years of trials, we no longer feel these are a good choice for your reptile."

and goes on to say:

Quote:

" However we have been measuring output from about every bulb ever put on the market over the years and the vast majority put out far too little UVB to be useful in this process. Additionally both ourselves, colleagues and several Zoo’s have noticed adverse effects form using these bulbs including basking avoidance to eye and skin issues. Many of us now choose to simply add vit. D3 to the diet and dispense with the bulbs. We spend 4 years rearing half each year’s offspring under UVB lights and half on non-UV lights but with D3 supplementation in the food and tracked their growth rates. Those without exposure to UV bulbs did every bit as well as those reared under Mercury Vapor bulbs. When we noticed our Chuckwallas in particular consistently refused to bask under the Mercury Vapor bulbs in 2009, we decided to finally pull all the UV bulbs in the building and replace them with high quality (yet inexpensive) clear white Infra-Red bulbs"


I believe he mentioned something about the cost of running so much lighting somewhere...especially those 100/175w IR bulbs that he uses (he would save a ton of cash by just using 45/50w outdoor halogen floods).

As for Francis, there is no question how important she is to the future of reptile lighting.



09/05/12  08:34pm

 #2279118


TheWild306
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  Message To: Vers   In reference to Message Id: 2279110


 Infrared vs UV Lighting

Hes good at what he does as a breeder. I ,personally, as well choose other routes. To each their own. Of course Im not a breeder. Im going upgrade to the D3+ T5 tube at some point as the video shows some really nice output. Thanks for all the comments. One last quest: providing your using a tank that is 4x2x2 and a T5 tube from Arcadia; what other lighting would you need/use with it?

That study didn’t really have all the products it could have so its not all that worth while to read. Also I think I combined some info from an unrelated forum post pertaining to the control of 18 months making it seem like a study. Apologizes. The control was only roughly 150 hours and I cant link it due to spam filter.



09/05/12  09:12pm

 #2279125


Vers
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  Message To: TheWild306   In reference to Message Id: 2279118


 Infrared vs UV Lighting

Personally, I use one or two 45/50w outdoor halogen floods on dimmers for basking and a 23-30w daylight rated non-UVB CFL for extra ambient. I lap the Arcadia fluorescent over half the basking area in order to create an area for the animal to absorb both UVB and heat and also provide an elevated surface outside the basking area where the uro can expose itself to equally high levels of UVB without the intense heat. I’ve found my uros will favor the UVB side of the basking surface, often raising their bodies up towards the light as if attempting to get closer.



09/05/12  09:47pm

 #2279128


TheWild306
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  Message To: Vers   In reference to Message Id: 2279125


 Infrared vs UV Lighting

Thank you very much Vers.



09/05/12  10:48pm

 #2279133


TheWild306
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  Message To: TheWild306   In reference to Message Id: 2279128


 Infrared vs UV Lighting

One more thing. Anyone know of/use a good timer to use with lighting? Im using the "Coralife Aqualight Digital Power Center" atm and it works fine for now. Ive heard many of the units fail randomly. It only has 2 day and night plugs and 4 standard plugs. Id like a better quality timer bar with 3 day/night.

Im going to go with the Arcadia T5, two 50w halogen floods and a Flukers ceramic heat element so I can adjust temps if I need. Sometimes it gets intense cold in Canada.

How much heat do floods give off Vers?
Ill have the 2 floods and CHE on dimmers. Do you find the floods give off good heat?



09/06/12  01:07am

 #2279149


Vers
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  Message To: TheWild306   In reference to Message Id: 2279133


 Infrared vs UV Lighting

An outdoor halogen generates a ton of heat...much more than your typical incandescent or (most) indoor floods. In fact on warmer days where the room temperature is moderately high I need to dim the bulb quite a bit in my top enclosures, even at ~14". I use two side by side in my lower enclosures but this is only because I have less headroom to work with, thus the spread from a bulb placed closer is much smaller. Using two bulbs side by side compensates for this and produces a much larger basking area. I would highly suggest using a dimmer or rheostat with this bulb, which is going to allow you to control temps much better.

I’m not sure which timers are recommend--I use all in-wall timers that are built in to my enclosures. Have you considered plugging a power strip/surge protector into your current timer?



09/06/12  09:20am

 #2279160


TheWild306
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  Message To: Vers   In reference to Message Id: 2279149


 Infrared vs UV Lighting

What kind of sockets do you have to use with your floods. Im using Flukers dome clamps with dimmers atm but they say for "incandescent bulbs."

As for the timer I just wanted an extra programmable socket for lights but I think im just going to use 2 power centers to solve the problem.



09/06/12  11:21am

 #2279164


Vers
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  Message To: TheWild306   In reference to Message Id: 2279160


 Infrared vs UV Lighting

I’m using adjustable outdoor security type fixtures, but they are mounted directly to the ceiling of the enclosure. In your case the Flukers dome should work but it might be a good idea to call Flukers customer service center to verify--better safe than sorry. As for the timer, check out a local home improvement store...who knows, it may be cheaper to find a new 6-8 outlet day/night timer than to buy two power strips. However, if you already have the strips on hand it would be a no-brainer :)



09/06/12  11:52am

 #2279175


TheWild306
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  Message To: Vers   In reference to Message Id: 2279164


 Infrared vs UV Lighting

Well I like the strip I have already because its digital, has a backup battery and has been reliable for me so far. Some people have problems but I have not yet. Doesn’t seem to really be anything better at a consumer level out there. Another one is only $30 or so. Im not sure what I would do with the standard fixtures for those bulbs. My lights are clamped onto a homemade light hanger I made and attached to my tank stand to suspend the lights above with some adjust-ability. It would be perfect If I could keep my Flukers dimmer domes. So ill take your advice and look into the safety aspect.



09/06/12  03:27pm

 #2279178


TheWild306
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  Message To: TheWild306   In reference to Message Id: 2279175


 Infrared vs UV Lighting

All my domes have ceramic sockets btw. lol I always forget something in my posts. Thanks again Vers :)



09/06/12  03:33pm

 #2279179


TheWild306
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  Message To: TheWild306   In reference to Message Id: 2279178


 Infrared vs UV Lighting

I just looked on Flukers website site and they sell their own 50w halogen bulbs that can be used with the same domes I use. So that answers that question. I hope.... Im assuming the only safety issue would be the heat generated from the bulb in the socket so the ceramic sockets are rated for intense heat. Don’t think this would change just because im using a halogen but ill do a bit more searching and call them if needed.



09/06/12  03:44pm


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