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 #1642858


Occ1123
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 Babies more toxic than adults?

I was talking to someone today who told me that baby venomous snakes have a more toxic venom than adults of the same species.
Now, I’m not talking about yield in proportion to toxicity or anything...just that a drop a venom from a baby venomous snake of whatever species is more toxic than a drop of venom from an adult of the same species.

I have never heard this before. Does anyone know for fact whether or not this is true?



02/29/08  05:50pm

 #1643001


RobertL
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   Message To: Occ1123   In reference to Message Id: 1642858


 Babies more toxic than adults?

Not true. Baby venomous snakes are just as venomous as the adults, adults just carry more of the same venom. Look for my older "neonate copperhead got me" post. Then look up some other copperhead bites lol
02/29/08  07:48pm

 #1643256


Occ1123
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   Message To: RobertL   In reference to Message Id: 1643001


 Babies more toxic than adults?

OK, thanks...that’s what I figured.

The only logic behind such a thought that I can think of is that a baby would need a more toxic venom than the adult because its yield isn’t as high.

But like you said, I was pretty sure that the venom toxicity of any snake didn’t change as the snake aged...only the amount that it can deliver, and I would suppose that there is a LD50 chart somewhere out there that could back that up.
02/29/08  11:07pm

 #1643540


Sully
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   Message To: Occ1123   In reference to Message Id: 1643256


 Babies more toxic than adults?

This doesnt count, but certain species of venomous snakes, as babies, have different types of venom from there adult counterparts --im having a real brainfart here but i think puff adders are included in that list, i.e. babies have some neuro’s and when adult no neuros are present.
03/01/08  11:17am

 #1643565


SoLA
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   Message To: Sully   In reference to Message Id: 1643540


 Babies more toxic than adults?

There actually is some logic to the original post. When you factor in diet, stress, and other environmental conditions that might play a roll in "polluting" the snakes body and causing a slightly less pure venom production. You could look at it this way and say it is certainly more likely that a baby snake that has not gone through these life situations has a more pure venom than a percentage of adults. But in general, they have the same venom.



03/01/08  12:01pm

 #1643574


Occ1123
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   Message To: Sully   In reference to Message Id: 1643540


 Babies more toxic than adults?

Interesting...

but do you know if the venom of babies of those certain species is more toxic (would kill an animal faster) compared to the adult? ...or is it that even though the babies and adults of certain species have different venom compositions, the venoms have the same overall toxicity (LD50) and would kill an animal just as quickly but possibly by different means?

Also, do you have any idea/guess as to why their venom compositions would be different? Does it have to do with the food that their eating or something?


Thanks,
Alex
03/01/08  12:07pm

 #1667180


Skiefyer
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   Message To: Occ1123   In reference to Message Id: 1643574


 Babies more toxic than adults?

One reason babies are thought to have more potent venom is that they are not as skilled in regulating the amount that they deliver with a single bite. They tend to "go for broke" a lot more often, whereas an adult has learned to moderate their delivery to the point of choosing to inflict "dry bites" if they feel threatened.
03/19/08  11:35am

 #1668855


Sully
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   Message To: Skiefyer   In reference to Message Id: 1667180


 Babies more toxic than adults?

Quote:

Interesting...

but do you know if the venom of babies of those certain species is more toxic (would kill an animal faster) compared to the adult? ...or is it that even though the babies and adults of certain species have different venom compositions, the venoms have the same overall toxicity (LD50) and would kill an animal just as quickly but possibly by different means?

Also, do you have any idea/guess as to why their venom compositions would be different? Does it have to do with the food that their eating or something?


Thanks,
Alex



i said ’’ doesnt count’’

they dont necisarily eat different prey, they just need to be able to immobilize it faster.

sorry it took me so long to post again, i forgot i posted in here to begin with.
03/20/08  04:49pm

 #1673480


Ambiguous666
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   Message To: Occ1123   In reference to Message Id: 1642858


 Babies more toxic than adults?

i read in one of my reptile magazines that that was just another silly snake myth people came up.
03/23/08  11:40pm

 #1674070


Occ1123
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   Message To: Ambiguous666   In reference to Message Id: 1673480


 Babies more toxic than adults?

Gotcha.

Thanks again guys.
03/24/08  04:09pm

 #1684583


Navy_JD
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   Message To: Skiefyer   In reference to Message Id: 1667180


 Babies more toxic than adults?

I believe Skiefyer is correct with his/her "go for broke" statement. From observing my two C. atrox since they were babies, this seems to be the case. When I received the pair the F was about 16" and the M around 12", just big enough for small hoppers. At this size it took about 45 seconds or less from strike to toes up; if it was a head or neck shot, less than 30 secs. Presently the F is over 3’ and eating two adult mice at a time. Generally, it takes at least 2 minutes for the rodent to go stiff after a bite. Now these are not super-sized mice- some are just bigger than hoppers, some are about double that size. But again, if the snake gets a head shot in, the time is greatly reduced but still longer than the 30 seconds as a baby.
So in my un-expert opinion, I’d say the babies are like kids in general- shoot your wad and hope you don’t need to follow up.

JD



03/31/08  10:50pm

 #1684668


Eekster
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   Message To: Navy_JD   In reference to Message Id: 1684583


 Babies more toxic than adults?

I have a different opinion the neonates may blow there wad or go for broke as you put it but the venom gland in a neonate are not near the size of and adult snake. So the adult may not go for broke and empty it’s glands but would release more venom in a single bite than a baby due to the venom glands being so much larger.

I say it’s a myth



04/01/08  12:13am

 #1685194


Snakebuz
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   Message To: Eekster   In reference to Message Id: 1684668


 Babies more toxic than adults?

The whole idea that babies need more toxic poison than adults is ludicrous to begin with....the much smaller prey that babies go for does not require more potent venom anyway.
04/01/08  04:10pm

 #1685259


Navy_JD
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   Message To: Eekster   In reference to Message Id: 1684668


 Babies more toxic than adults?

Your response does have a certain logic behind it, but it doesn’t address the observed strike to death time differential. And yes, I was paying close attention because I had heard about this argument before I obtained my atrox. I suppose we shall have to do a controlled experiment to get to the bottom of this.

JD
04/01/08  05:06pm

 #1687720


Snakebuz
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   Message To: Navy_JD   In reference to Message Id: 1685259


 Babies more toxic than adults?

To me, the fact that a baby snake killed a proportionately sized mouse quicker than an adult killed an adult mouse is not an accurate test of the poison....the baby mice are far more suceptible than an adult is. To do an accurate testing, will require milking baby and adults, and adjust the amounts injected proportionately to the snakes size, but with the same size mice as test subjects for both large and small snake venoms. That would be a more accurate test.
04/03/08  01:27pm

 #1688758


Jimi Sellars
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   Message To: Snakebuz   In reference to Message Id: 1687720


 Babies more toxic than adults?

Skiefyer is correct.

This fact gets twisted and confused all the time but it all comes down to the fact that they have not learned to regulate the amount of venom yet.
04/04/08  04:41am

 #1689725


Navy_JD
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   Message To: Jimi Sellars   In reference to Message Id: 1688758


 Babies more toxic than adults?

I just dropped a medium adult mouse in with the atrox. It wandered over to their hide just as the female was cruising out. She turned the corner and saw the mouse not 4 inches away; since her neck was already crooked, she just went for it. Mouse got nailed head on just behind the ears, I think. It went straight down, twitched for about 10 secs., and that was all she wrote.

JD
04/04/08  09:39pm


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