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 #81601


FutureCROChunter
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 Do you guys have PICS of the diff. between male and femal(adult) WD

Hey do you guys have any pics of a adult male and adult female water dragon...i would like to c the difference. THANKS!


06/03/04  10:39am
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 #82562


Greendragons
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  Message To: FutureCROChunter   In reference to Message Id: 81601


 Do you guys have PICS of the diff. between male and femal(adult) WD

This is Einy and she is deffinatly a girl! GD


06/05/04  1:19pm
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 #85875


Dragon Girl
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  Message To: Greendragons   In reference to Message Id: 82562


 Do you guys have PICS of the diff. between male and femal(adult) WD

actually u can’t tell what sex it is just by looks u haft 2 go 2 the vet 2 go get it sexed and they will tell u or u can c it when it pees on u thats how i found (of course the hard nasy way)BLAA!


06/13/04  3:50pm
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 #85892


Nemesis_Morte
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  Message To: Dragon   In reference to Message Id: 85875


 Do you guys have PICS of the diff. between male and femal(adult) WD

Actually there is a way to sex your dragon by looking at him/her.

The Young Dragon
All dragons have female features when they are young. Small, but proportional to body size, slightly triangular shaped heads. A small or low crest on the back of the neck. Slightly rounded bodies. They usually have small spikes along the crest, their backs and down their tails, but some or all spikes may be missing due to poor shedding of skin. The underside of the back legs have femoral pores. On young dragons these pores are usually small, smooth and white.

The Juvenile Dragon
A dragon is considered a juvenile when it’s body is approx. 3 inches in length from the snout to the vent, and if the tail is intact, when the dragons total length is approx. 10 to 12 inches. When they reach this size they are usually about a year old, and yes they still look female.

As a dragon approaches approximately a year and a half in age- lets say 4.5- 6" snout to vent or 16 - 18" in total length, the secondary sexual characteristics begin to develop.

The Male Dragon
At this time, if your dragon is a male:

1. His head will begin to get larger and wider and even more triangular.
2. The crest on the neck will begin to get higher, and the spikes much longer
3. The spikes on his back will get longer,
You’ll notice that below the spikes there is a ridge of bone or cartilage under the skin that points upward, just as the spikes do. I don’t know if there is a proper term for this characteristic but I call them vertebral spikes. On an adult male these bony protrusions under the skin, below the spikes are approximately 1/2 inch long (1.2 cm).
Females do not have this at all.
4. the spikes at the base of the tail will get substantially higher, almost like a secondary dorsal crest
5. the femoral pores on the underside of the back legs will grow much wider, become darker and start to fill with a waxy like substance.
The femoral pores will feel bumpy compared to a females which will continue to stay small, smooth and indistinct.
6. As the male dragon approaches adulthood you should notice that his body is also more triangular shaped ... upward triangular, and that the base of the tail is much more triangular than that of a female.
An adult females body is more rounded or pear shaped (especially in the abdominal area), and her tail should remain rounded in appearance.
If your dragon gets to be say, 5 inches snout to vent or longer, and it’s total length is 18 or more inches and you haven’t started to see some of these changes in appearance you most likely have a female dragon.

Special care is required for females!
If you believe you have a female dragon please note that female dragons have special care requirements in adulthood. This is mainly because female dragons will develop, and lay eggs whether they have ever mated with a male or not. If they have never mated the eggs just wont be fertile.

Anyone with a dragon that is 5" or more snout to vent, or 18 or more inches in total length that they believe might be female, should have a proper egg laying area set up for the dragon. If a female dragon develops eggs and doesn’t have what she considers a proper place to lay them, she may hold them and become egg bound. This could lead to death if the problem is not discovered quickly.

Egg development takes a great toll of the female body. The female needs to be in good shape to come through this period with a clean bill of health. She needs to be fed a nutritious diet, She needs to be kept at the proper temperatures, and while she is gravid (pregnant) she should be getting calcium supplements every day.

To shell the eggs the female dragon needs calcium. If she’s not getting enough from her diet (proper UVB fluorescent lighting is also necessary to help absorb the calcium properly!!) she will use calcium from her bones and could become calcium deficient.

Calcium deficiency or MBD is a very serious ailment and it could lead to death if proper medical attention is not sought.


06/13/04  4:22pm
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 #85908


Dragon Girl
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  Message To: Nemesis_Morte   In reference to Message Id: 85892


 Do you guys have PICS of the diff. between male and femal(adult) WD

oh..... i think it’s a boy 4 it has spikes on it’s neck but it has the lining for where it should have spikes will they grow back?but it acts like a boy it’s about 12"in long.but i think the pet store lied and said they couldn’t tell but i don’t know but i think Dragon is a boy.


06/13/04  4:59pm
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 #85914


Saf
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  Message To: Nemesis_Morte   In reference to Message Id: 85892


 Do you guys have PICS of the diff. between male and femal(adult) WD

hey, i was just reading wot u put there about female dragons laying eggs. well im pritty sure jollops a boy but he is only 9 month old, how old will be b before he can be properly sexed?? im getting worryed incase jollop turns out to be a girl and he gets egg bound....i dont want him to die :( is there a way of knowing if there egg bound (do they get run down, thin, unhealthy ect?)
thanx
xx saf xx


06/13/04  5:06pm
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 #85917


Dragon Girl
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  Message To: Saf   In reference to Message Id: 85914


 Do you guys have PICS of the diff. between male and femal(adult) WD

i’m worried about that 2.i just had my other lizard die and he is my 2nd and i love dragon already.but i’m pretty shur mines a boy 2.how big is yours?


06/13/04  5:15pm
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 #85946


Nemesis_Morte
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  Message To: Saf   In reference to Message Id: 85914


 Do you guys have PICS of the diff. between male and femal(adult) WD

to sex you dragon, it must be at least 18 inches long including the tail. Everything above explains at what size you can sex and how to sex your dragon. As for egg bound you will see a dramatic increase in abdominal girth which is of course the eggs. Yes they will become skinny and slowed down loosing mass and so on as well as become calcium deficient do to being egg bound.

Female dragons may produce and lay eggs whether or not they have copulated with a male or not. The eggs wont be fertile if they haven’t been with a male but the information below is very important if you have a female dragon.

A gravid females appetite will slowly decrease and her belly expands she wont be able to eat much at all eventually since the eggs will be pressing on her digestive system therefore she will probably loose weight in the legs, arms and tail. You will likely get quite worried about her judging from what others have said about their gravid females.

It is very important to make sure that a gravid female dragon gets adequate calcium supplements during this period. Give them over their normal calcium amount by either adding powdered calcium to their food or by giving liquid calcium drops (in their drinking water). Simple gut-loading your crickets will not do. Normally you should be giving your dragons calcium supplements at least twice a week at all times at very least, but gravid females may need extra calcium during this two month period to aid in egg development and to prevent depletion of calcium levels in her own body.

Egg Laying:
Females lay eggs approximately two months after copulation has occurred. 2-3 weeks before she is ready to lay you may be able to gently palpate 2-4 eggs on either side of her belly, these eggs may actually become not just palpable but visible on her sides as she gets closer to laying them. They will feels almost like jelly beans along her sides. Once you can feel the eggs (gently) prepare an area for her to lay eggs (if you have not done so already).

To prepare an area you will need a space in the enclosure that has either soil (NO FERTILIZER OF ANY KIND!) or sandy peat moss (this is highly recommended) that is about 8 to 10 inches deep. Make sure that the soul is slightly moist but not too moist. You dont want it to dry either! When she starts digging you want the soil to pile up nicely for her not cave back in on her. So make sure it is moist enough that when you dig in it or hold it in your hand it will back and not fall loose and grainy. If you do not set up a proper area she may hold the eggs and become egg-bound. This is a very serious condition! When she is just about ready to lay her eggs you may notice her digging on and off but not laying the eggs yet. Keep and eye on her shell lay the eggs eventually.

Dystocia:
Dystocia is a relatively common malady in reptiles, occurring in lizards, snakes and chelonians. There are many different causes and in most cases the cause goes undetected. Dystocia occurs most often in first time breeding females of those females who have previously retained eggs and female bearing infertile clutches. Dystocia can occur in live bearing and ovoviviparous species; these are less common perhaps only because at this time there are fewer such species being bred in comparison with oviparous (egg-laying) species.

One general cause of dystocia may be due to inability of the eggs to pass through the oviduct and cloacae. There may be an obstruction (such as masses of abscesses or cystic calculi) the eggs may be too large or malpositioned or the pelvis may be misshapen. Two or more eggs may be bound together or a single egg may be exceptionally large or misshapen.

Dystocias can occur in the absence of obstructions of malformations. It is theorized that such retentions may be result of one or more factors including poor husbandry, improper nesting site, improper temperatures, poor or inadequate diet (malnutrition), dehydration and poor physical conditions of the female. This latter is easily caused in and remedied in captivity.

Captive reptiles lead very sedentary lifestyles compared to their wild counterparts, this lack the muscle strength or tone to get all the eggs into position for laying and expelling them in a timely manner (from first egg to last). It is not uncommon for the last egg or two to be retained despite the successful and apparent ease with which the rest of the clutch was expelled (from my experiences egg-binding in iggies happen more often to females who are enclosed in cages that to not allow for sufficient climbing, being either to short or they are fed at their basking sites and often physically removed by the owner for defecation elsewhere. Iggies housed in enclosures at least 5-6 feet high and who must climb up and down for eating/drinking and defecation appear to have fewer incidents of dystocia).

The most common causes of dystocia in lizards is the absence of a suitable nesting site and media. A lizard progressing normally through the period of carrying gestating eggs or fetus will not be eating but will be alter and active. Their usually physical grace may be compromised especially as their lower half becomes swollen with the developing eggs or fetuses but they are able to move around climbing and roosting as usual. A lizard suffering from dystocia on the other hand will become lethargic, depressed and/or no responsive. If the laying media is not of the right consistency the lizard may spend hours kicking the dirt out then wandering around making digging attempts almost anywhere. This latter activity is more frenzied and the lizard grows weaker and more visibly stressed as the pressure to lay the eggs mounts. Straining may be seen as may the prolapse of cloacal or oviductal tissue. Lizards can tolerate dystocia for considerably less time than can snakes often only matter of days and so should be evaluated medically soon after such signs are observed. Many lizards can produce and lay eggs without being mated.

Treatment:
Instigating treatment before it is necessary may cause more harm to the female and to the developing clutch. Conversely with holding treatment or delaying getting treatment may be injurious to the female and developing clutch especially in lizards. Once the female begins but does not complete laying or birthing, treatment should be started within 48 hours.

Females will sometimes complete laying or birthing after a pause but generally within the 48 hour window.

Physical treatment:
One common way to induce laying is to gently but firmly massage the eggs out one by one by running the finger down the abdomen. This method is risky, however in that it may rupture or cause a prolapse in the oviduct, could rupture the egg and thus possibly cause death. If the egg can actually be seen at the vent extreme care may be taken to try and remove the egg but attempts may result in a broken egg with disastrous results for the female.

Hormonal Stimulation:
Posterior pituitary hormones have been used to start oviductal contractions. It is not effective and may be dangerous in females who are suffering from malformation of the pelvis or oviduct or who are carrying malformed/misshapen/enlarged eggs or fetus or who are suffering from an obstruction of the oviduct. Use of oxytocin (or the new experimental arginine vasotocin or aminosuberic arginine vasotocin) in such cases may cause egg or oviductal rupture or hemorrhage and death. The overall efficacy of oxytocin, the most commonly administered hormone, varies between species and can be hampered the longer the retention; it is most effective when administered within the first 48 hours. Oxytocin is administered by intramuscular or intracoelomic injections (5-30 IU/kg, but reports of efficacy in doses as low as 1 IU/kg have been reported in turtles). A second dose is often given 2-60 minutes after the first injection. Oxytocin’s effectiveness is increased by the provision of the proper temperatures so the female should be kept at the preferred body temperature for the species. Oxytocin is most effective in chelonians less effective in lizards and not as effective in snakes.

Arginine vasotocin and aminosuberic arginine vasotocin a less effective but more stable form of arginine vasotocin is the natural reptilian oxytocin. It is more effective than oxytocin but arginine vasotocin is available only as a research drug and is quite pricey than oxytocin.

Other hormone treatments have been tried to increase the efficacy of oxytocin including administration of progesterone and estrogen; there have been no studies to verify their usefulness. once recent study did show that pretreatment with proprandol may increase the efficacy of labor inducing drugs.

Aspiration:
A common treatment for dystocia involves inserting a needle into the egg and aspirating the contents. The result is a far smaller egg which may be more easily passed through the oviduct and cloaca; oxytonic may be used to start contractions if they do not start on their own within a few hours or even a couple of days. Caution must be taken to not allow any of the egg contents to escape into the coelomic cavity. Aspiration must be done within the 48 hour period after cessation of natural laying attempts. After that short time the contents of the eggs themselves being to harden making aspiration impossible. If the eggs are not expelled within 48 hours of aspiration they must be surgically removed.

Surgery:
If other attempts at inducing have failed the reptile must be anesthized for surgical removal. Before cutting a final attempt at manually manipulating the eggs be tried owning to the reduced risk to the female due to the relation of the oviductal sphincter from the anesthesia. As before care must be taken to not push hard enough to cause prolapse or rupture.

Depending upon what is found when the vet goes inside the eggs only may be removed or some or all the reproductive tissues may be removed. If there is no intention of breeding the female the other may wish to have the ovariousalingectomy done at the same time to prevent future incidents of binding.

Viability of the removed eggs/fetuses:
Fertile eggs removed with oxytocin from non-dystocia females have been successfully incubated; eggs from females suffering from dystocia have generally not been successful. Fetuses removed through salpingotomy have also been successful.

Finishing up:
The biggest factors determining female post-retention survival is her overall physical state. Most are severely weakened as the result of the dystocia. Those who started out in good nutritional health/hydration and physical states are more likely to recover. Reptiles who have had only one of their reproductive tracts removed may often successfully reproduce in the future.

Personally speaking if you are concerned about dystocia, if you are not sure if your female is gravid or not, if you are not sure if she is distressed or not, do not guess and try to wait it out. Get her to a reptile vet and find out exactly (or as much as possible) what you are dealing with!

I hope all of this has answered your question in full. If you are curious about something else or I didn’t quite answer your question to your liking please feel free to ask more, est.


06/13/04  6:22pm
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 #85998


Dragon Girl
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  Message To: Nemesis_Morte   In reference to Message Id: 85946


 Do you guys have PICS of the diff. between male and femal(adult) WD

wait i rember u saying somthin about the males having longer spines. c mine has spines on it’s neck and on it’s tail but none on it’s back would that conseder it a male?


06/13/04  8:37pm
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 #86016


Nemesis_Morte
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  Message To: Dragon   In reference to Message Id: 85998


 Do you guys have PICS of the diff. between male and femal(adult) WD

If the spines are large say 1/2 inch yes it would be a very high chance to be a male.


06/13/04  9:00pm
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 #86022


Dragon Girl
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  Message To: Nemesis_Morte   In reference to Message Id: 86016


 Do you guys have PICS of the diff. between male and femal(adult) WD

does it haft 2 b a sertain size b4 telling?


06/13/04  9:09pm
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 #86028


Nemesis_Morte
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  Message To: Dragon   In reference to Message Id: 86022


 Do you guys have PICS of the diff. between male and femal(adult) WD

Yes atleast 1/2 inch to know for sure it is a male. Females have spines as well but very small ones about 1/16 of an inch or a little longer max of about 3/16 of an inch.


06/13/04  9:13pm
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 #86033


Dragon Girl
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  Message To: Nemesis_Morte   In reference to Message Id: 86028


 Do you guys have PICS of the diff. between male and femal(adult) WD

yes he has a little around 1/2 in spines.1ce i take a pic and post it u can c him


06/13/04  9:19pm
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 #86038


Nemesis_Morte
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  Message To: Dragon   In reference to Message Id: 86033


 Do you guys have PICS of the diff. between male and femal(adult) WD

Ok well you have a very high chance for yours to be a male.


06/13/04  9:27pm
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 #86042


Dragon Girl
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  Message To: Nemesis_Morte   In reference to Message Id: 86038


 Do you guys have PICS of the diff. between male and femal(adult) WD

WOOOOOOOOOO HOOOOOOOOOOO great i would love 2 have a male but a female would b o.k. 2


06/13/04  9:32pm
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 #86994


Greendragons
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  Message To: Dragon   In reference to Message Id: 86042


 Do you guys have PICS of the diff. between male and femal(adult) WD

here is a head shot of my female Einy..GD


06/15/04  8:58pm
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 #89180


Ryan07
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  Message To: Greendragons   In reference to Message Id: 86994


 Do you guys have PICS of the diff. between male and femal(adult) WD

i have a question, would all this information be the same for the Australian water dragons? becuse i know for a fact that one of mine is a male, and im pretty sure that the other is a female, and the male is 6.5 inches snout to vent and the possible female is 6 inches snout to vent. so do i need to go and get some peat moss or soil extremely quickly or what?


06/20/04  8:11pm
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 #89366


Chompy432
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  Message To: Greendragons   In reference to Message Id: 82562


 Do you guys have PICS of the diff. between male and femal(adult) WD

actually Einy looks kinda like a boy.


06/21/04  10:10am
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 #92372


Greendragons
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  Message To: Chompy432   In reference to Message Id: 89366


 Do you guys have PICS of the diff. between male and femal(adult) WD

Not unless boys lay eggs...and Einy has laid eggs.GD


06/27/04  9:36pm
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 #92390


JakePRouse
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  Message To: Greendragons   In reference to Message Id: 92372


 Do you guys have PICS of the diff. between male and femal(adult) WD

Ha, i think he’s gotcha there :P


06/27/04  10:49pm
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 #92493


Greendragons
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  Message To: JakePRouse   In reference to Message Id: 92390


 Do you guys have PICS of the diff. between male and femal(adult) WD

in fact I am waiting for her to do it again. She has all of her substrate in a big pile and has been checking it over and over. She still eats like a horse though! GD


06/28/04  11:10am
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 #92598


JakePRouse
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  Message To: Greendragons   In reference to Message Id: 92493


 Do you guys have PICS of the diff. between male and femal(adult) WD

what kind of substrate??? can it be a bark, or have to be a soil ???and how deep does it have to be? moist or not???

thx jake


06/28/04  2:44pm
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 #92691


Nemesis_Morte
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  Message To: JakePRouse   In reference to Message Id: 92598


 Do you guys have PICS of the diff. between male and femal(adult) WD

If you have a female that is getting ready to lay eggs or you just want to be ready for it, she needs either organic(non fertilized or has chemicals) soil or peat moss. That is what I use and it is about 6 inches deep and I keep it moist.


06/28/04  5:39pm
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 #95258


Babyangelb30
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  Message To: FutureCROChunter   In reference to Message Id: 81601


 Do you guys have PICS of the diff. between male and femal(adult) WD

A male has large femoral pores on its legs and a female dosen’t. YOU CAN’T TELL FROM JUST LOOKING AT THEM!! I have a female that has a larger crest and looks like a male from looking at her, but she’s laid eggs, so I’m POSITIVE she’s a female. If you can, post pictures of your lizards "parts" and then I will be able to better tell you which is which. I can’t get my camera to work so I can’t send you a picture of my males and the Female is pregnant so I can’t send a picture of her anyways. I can help more if I had pictures.


07/04/04  2:21pm
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 #95298


Storm&rex
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  Message To: Babyangelb30   In reference to Message Id: 95258


 Do you guys have PICS of the diff. between male and femal(adult) WD

As ure mostly asking about eggs and all that i just thought i would share my little knowledge with ya
my female is about 18 inches and she had a clutch of 8 eggs sadly they didnt hatch or anything
i put down some moss for her but she just hid in a cave i made and laid her eggs in there she kept digging for ages till she made herself a little nest in the woodchippings i use for their vivarium all she would do for about 2 weeks is hide and come out to eat then go and hide again i thought she maybe getting eggbound but she was just fine
when she laid her eggs i was frantically searching the net for information on how to keep the eggs and so i followed infomation saying u should make an incubator thing so this i done but they still died so next time i shall just leave them where she has them and hope for the best after all she must know wot shes doing because shes the mother lol i know im rambling abit but well i noticed a few of u also going off the real subject so i thought i would follow he he he
maybe this info can help u out abit


07/04/04  4:15pm
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 #95603


Babyangelb30
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  Message To: Storm&rex   In reference to Message Id: 95298


 Do you guys have PICS of the diff. between male and femal(adult) WD

YOU CAN NOT TELL THE SEX OF A WATER DRAGON BY ITS LOOKS!!!!!!!!! THE MALE HAS LARGE FEMORAL PORES ON HIS LEGS AND THE FEMALE HAS HARDLY NOTICEABLE PORES!!!!!!! I WILL HAVE PICTURES OF THESE AS SOON AS MY HUSBAND GETS BACK WITH BATTERIES FOR THE CAMERA.


07/05/04  4:42pm
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 #95610


TwilightDreamer1979
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  Message To: Babyangelb30   In reference to Message Id: 95603


 Do you guys have PICS of the diff. between male and femal(adult) WD

Hey hey, guess who’s back .. who missed me? lol

OK you wanna see a pic of a male?
For all you newbes that don’t know, this is my male Water Dragon Killer.



and just for good measure .. a photo of the pores on the inside of his thighs.



Hope you’re all ok.
TD.x.


07/05/04  5:45pm
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 #95800


Abe
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  Message To: TwilightDreamer1979   In reference to Message Id: 95610


 Do you guys have PICS of the diff. between male and femal(adult) WD

Hi TD, just finished off making the section of the site about the differences between male and female water dragons, with Abe and Killer as examples! Here’s the link: Abe & Killer!


07/06/04  9:30am
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 #95981


TwilightDreamer1979
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  Message To: Abe   In reference to Message Id: 95800


 Do you guys have PICS of the diff. between male and femal(adult) WD

Hey Abe

Thats great news!! I’m just checking it out now :) though it is taking ages to load :(

you didn’t answer my question .. miss me ;)

TD.x.


07/06/04  3:07pm
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 #96012


TwilightDreamer1979
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  Message To: TwilightDreamer1979   In reference to Message Id: 95981


 Do you guys have PICS of the diff. between male and femal(adult) WD

Hey abe ..

Just seen what you’ve done with the photo’s .. you’ve made good use of them! I especially like the first two, a great comparason between the two.

can I make some suggestions?

TD.x.


07/06/04  4:22pm
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 #97411


JakePRouse
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  Message To: TwilightDreamer1979   In reference to Message Id: 96012


 Do you guys have PICS of the diff. between male and femal(adult) WD

Searchin the web to find a pic of fermoral pores and there is a pic in this forum ... imagine that :P ... 4 or 5 posts up ... thx to Twilight Dreamer :D ....


07/09/04  12:32pm
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