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LunaC View Profile |
Message To: Blake258 In reference to Message Id: 2019154 Are male veield chameleons usuallly skinny
Quote: OWNED
Very mature. |
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| 06/09/09 05:43pm |
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Blake258 View Profile |
Message To: Blake258 In reference to Message Id: 2019293 Are male veield chameleons usuallly skinny
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| 06/09/09 06:02pm |
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ColdBloodedAnimal View Profile |
Message To: Julirs In reference to Message Id: 2019268 Are male veield chameleons usuallly skinny
I’m not sure if the gout pathology was in reference to chameleons or crickets. I’m assuming the former. Either way neither is a cause of concern. The amount of protein from cat food, that a cricket ingests over a period of a week or so is not enough to cause gout as renal function must be inadequate in the first place. Now if you were feeding a reptile such as a uromastyx which relies heavily on greens and is largely an herbivore I’d say you have a point. However, when dealing with insectivores such as chameleons, their bodies are naturally engineered to deal with moderate protein foods. Gout and gular edema are two very real pathologies that can affect chameleons but is usually attributed to feeding them very high foods that they are not meant to consume. Such as small mammals (largely pinkies). Gout in chamelones is a result of one or more things such as 1) impaired renal function 2) impaired amino acid metabolism and 3) exessive protein intake. The latter referring to the small mammal issue. I would bet that a chameleon that is prone to develop such pathologies is a result of nature (genetics) rather nurture. I suppose Blake258 was possibly joking but nonetheless his post seemed to be an attempt to spoil a good discussion. Great posts so far guys, I’d like to point out no one is necessarily right or wrong here. Unfortunately scientific studies aren’t too common when dealing with herps and as mentioned before a large majority of the information is merely educated opinion (in which I classify my own). Sparking a discussion like this is beneficial. |
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| 06/10/09 01:03am |
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Jonas77 View Profile |
Message To: Jonas77 In reference to Message Id: 2019536 Are male veield chameleons usuallly skinny
The gutload link I gave is great. Someone said he/she didnt think there was much difference, but I can testify that there IS a great difference. I could see a huge difference in the chameleon color and in their general "mood". One doesn not have to follow that recipe to the last detail, its fine to add/remove items as long as it is replaced with something similar (protein replaced by protein, carbs replaced by carbs...). You make one big batch, not that time-consuming actually. One have to understand what gutload is; its just for loading the guts of the feeders. This is not meant as an everyday food for crickets and other feeders. For every day use and bringing up small crickets, anything goes as food - catfood is OK, I know that a lot of ppl use chicken feed but I do believe that turkey feed is better (here in Sweden anyway). Gutload is only fed to a smaller amount of crickets a few days before you use them. Gutload and cricket FOOD is not the same. |
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| 06/10/09 02:11am |
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ColdBloodedAnimal View Profile |
Message To: ColdBloodedAnimal In reference to Message Id: 2019548 Are male veield chameleons usuallly skinny
I tend to think a lot of people are overreacting to his cricket statement rather than actually answering his orignal inquiry about the status of a "skinny male" chameleon. It would be interesting to see what you guys eat on a daily basis. Drink water bottles? Well carcinogens are liable to leach in water. Eat grilled meats? Well carcinogens are flourishing in such meats. Eat meat at all? Make sure it’s grass fed, hormone-free. Eat fruit? Has to be organic or you get pesticides. We could go all day.... I doubt the people bashing the OP for using cricket food are actually taking the time to see what their own food sources living conditions or diet was like before they consumed them. My point is when we start to overreact to someone feeding their reptile’s "food source" a cetain food it becomes problematic. Personally I think Jonas’s homemade mixture is a very good one. But I don’t have the time to make the concoction and it sounds as if it’s no better then cat food and oats. I don’t think Iams is a "top notch" cat food either, as mentioned earlier I was just comparing the most popular cat food (Iams) to the most popular cricket mix (Fluker’s). There are a variety of cat and dog foods that are very appropriate for cats and dogs. What do you suggest we feed our animals, rice and chicken (dogs) and straight beef, chicken, and fish (cats)? That is quite the expense. |
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| 06/10/09 12:43pm |
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Jonas77 View Profile |
Message To: Jonas77 In reference to Message Id: 2019706 Are male veield chameleons usuallly skinny
I dont think we need to use that much of resoning to see that a good gutload is better than catfood. Im using bee pollen as a part of the gutload, that in it self conteins such a huge variety of nutrients/micronutrients that nothing on earth can compete. I believe this is key: Variety. The insects in nature have been all over the place, each and everyone of then slightli different in natural gutload. They dont all contain catfood... |
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| 06/10/09 01:03pm |
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ColdBloodedAnimal View Profile |
Message To: ColdBloodedAnimal In reference to Message Id: 2019717 Are male veield chameleons usuallly skinny
Believe it or not, not all nutrients that can be assimilated in humans (ex: bee pollen) can be assimilated in other species. A great example is cellulose which the human body cannot absorb and pigs can. So whose to say that chameleons can even use the phytonutrients found in bee pollen that will ultimately be in the stomach of their prey? My intentions of posting were to point out that cat food is not a horrible choice. There are other viable options that may be superior but to say cat food should never be fed to crickets is absurd. Not all crickets contain dry milk, monkey food, bee pollen, or even cat food etc. in the wild either. Sounds like a very atypical diet that a cricket would encounter in nature. |
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| 06/10/09 01:24pm |
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Jonas77 View Profile |
Message To: Jonas77 In reference to Message Id: 2019728 Are male veield chameleons usuallly skinny
Quote: Not all crickets contain dry milk, monkey food, bee pollen, or even cat food etc. in the wild either. Sounds like a very atypical diet that a cricket would encounter in nature.
Its not interesting to look at the products used and then say "you wont find this in nature", only the result is interesting. These ingredients fill a function of giving the best possible nutrients into the crickets with as big variaty as possible. We are trying to compete with natural variety, ofcourse it wont be found in nature. You wont find UV-bulbs in nature eighter, so a hat must be just as good for UV then, because you dont find hats in nature eighter... See the faulty reasoning here? |
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| 06/10/09 03:11pm |
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ColdBloodedAnimal View Profile |
Message To: ColdBloodedAnimal In reference to Message Id: 2019789 Are male veield chameleons usuallly skinny
[quote=Jonas77]The insects in nature have been all over the place, each and everyone of then slightli different in natural gutload. They dont all contain catfood... The faulty reasoning was I guess an unsuccesful attempt to give you an idea of your own logic. I was using your reasoning by stating the exact statement (instead of comparing cat food comparing it to the blend you posted). I like how you avoid the questions I post and pick and choose what statements you want to address. The point as I’ll point out again was to show the absurdity of condemning cat or dog food and saying "hey this blend is better". Last time I checked their was no scientific research on the issue, just educated opinion. Neither of these things are found in nature. Thus, the cricket would never have these nutrients gutloaded in the first place. So whose to say these phytonutrients, antioxidants, etc. whatever your trying to do by adding exotic ingredients, are going to be of any benefit to the chameleon? Evolution has most likely not even adapted the chameleon to this type of variety. Whose to say they even have the right enzymes to digest such materials that are being gutloaded? The whole issue I don’t understand is why members would say "cat food is too high in protein" and then recommend a blend that is just as high in protein. Quote: |
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| 06/10/09 04:30pm |
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ColdBloodedAnimal View Profile |
Message To: ColdBloodedAnimal In reference to Message Id: 2019832 Are male veield chameleons usuallly skinny
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SA649is6fnQ&feature=player_embedded Nearly all of the insects that chameleons eat are omnivores with a preference to high protein diets, so I’d think that their bodies have adapted to processing such contents in the gut of a cricket. |
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| 06/10/09 04:46pm |
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Blake258 View Profile |
Message To: Blake258 In reference to Message Id: 2019839 Are male veield chameleons usuallly skinny
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| 06/12/09 01:35am |
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Jonas77 View Profile |
Message To: Jonas77 In reference to Message Id: 2020755 Are male veield chameleons usuallly skinny
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| 06/12/09 02:19am |
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Julirs View Profile |
Message To: Julirs In reference to Message Id: 2020760 Are male veield chameleons usuallly skinny
I am also very glad someone pointed out the difference betwen feeding/sustaining crickets and gutloading them before feeding. Insects in the wild are not eating cat or dog food filled with chemicals either-so why go there? There are all kinds of studies on Dogs and Cat foods on the web. The majority of them "suck" to put it plainly. If my busy lifestyle allowed, my Dogs would be eating raw food. In the meantime they will eat premium foods that have the best blend of ingredients possible. My crickets shall be eating fresh veggies and fruits on top of their cricket food that came from my cricket breeders. |
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| 06/12/09 07:05am |
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Julirs View Profile |
Message To: Julirs In reference to Message Id: 2020787 Are male veield chameleons usuallly skinny
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| 06/12/09 07:07am |
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Blake258 View Profile |
Message To: Blake258 In reference to Message Id: 2020788 Are male veield chameleons usuallly skinny
But they are eating monkey chow? |
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| 06/12/09 02:06pm |
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Jonas77 View Profile |
Message To: Jonas77 In reference to Message Id: 2020981 Are male veield chameleons usuallly skinny
This is really uninteresting, turning ones words around. Two wrongs does not make a right. Look at the reasons for gutloading (I have mentioned some of them earlier), what insects eat or dont eat in nature is unimportant. |
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| 06/12/09 02:27pm |
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ColdBloodedAnimal View Profile |
Message To: ColdBloodedAnimal In reference to Message Id: 2020760 Are male veield chameleons usuallly skinny
Pet keepers reputation is usually defined by how much an individual can get his/her pets to produce quality offspring and their knowledge of the species. It has nothing to do with the type of ingredients that their animals "food" eats. I don’t disagree that many cat and dog food products are not top quality. But brands such as Innova are very close to a natural diet that a feline would encounter in the wild. However if you would have read you would have seen I’ve pointed out that I was merely comparing the most popular brand (Iams) compared to the most popular brand of cricket feed (Fluker’s). Anyways if you’d look at the nutrient profile and see the ingredients that are offered in a typical cat and/or dog food you’d see that it’s much better then any other type of feed you could offer a cricket without spending tedious time devoting to sourcing and buying exotic ingredients such as monkey chow, etc. The point is various members bashed the OP for his choice of using cat food when they themselves have no scientific proof or data to show that their own homemade blends are superior. I have a question for you guys. What type of nutrients are you trying to superload "gutload" into your crickets so the effects may be of benefit to your chameleon? |
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| 06/12/09 02:32pm |
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Blake258 View Profile |
Message To: Blake258 In reference to Message Id: 2020994 Are male veield chameleons usuallly skinny
Very mature, and what does this have to do with anything? The fact that a study shows crickets in the wild prefer a high salt,protein, and moderate carbs is equal to a human wanting to eat a mcmuffin? I doubt crickets are going to tend to want to eat something that is going to kill them, they’re attracted to the high protein, salt, and moderate carbs because obviously something in their bodies are telling them they need those substances. This is not comparable to a human craving a mcmuffin because they like the taste. I guess in the wild the insects just pass up dead animals because it doesnt want to be high in protein for its predators. Most insects are opurtunist omnivores and will not pass up anything that is edible, including a rotting dead animal high in lots of protein. |
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| 06/12/09 02:51pm |
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Jonas77 View Profile |
Message To: Jonas77 In reference to Message Id: 2021007 Are male veield chameleons usuallly skinny
Quote: Pet keepers reputation is usually defined by how much an individual can get his/her pets to produce quality offspring and their knowledge of the species. It has nothing to do with the type of ingredients that their animals "food" eats.
I dont get you here. I have told you that my experience is that the gutload I linked to have improved my animals life, how can that not have anything to do with what I feed them? Quality offspring and knowledge is important you say, you do realize that offspring will be greatly affected by what is fed to the female, right? Matternal effects in offspring is a huge thing. Im not sure what you are trying to achieve here, is it to be right in that cat/dog food is as good a gutload as anything? I have tried it all, I have seen both sides of this discussion. Can you say the same? There are some nice articles on nutrients etc, at chameleonnews.com, did you read them? |
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| 06/12/09 03:08pm |
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Blake258 View Profile |
Message To: Blake258 In reference to Message Id: 2021007 Are male veield chameleons usuallly skinny
Why dont you look at some of the points coldbloodedanimal brought up instead of ignoring them, at least coldblooded responds to your points.Why dont you actually answer at least my original question, then help me out with my crickets food. Only one person sort of answered my question out of 47 replies. How do you know monkey chow does not have chemicals in it like cat or dog food. That diet is a tremendous hassle to find all of the ingredients. Im sure the insects in the wild where chameleons are found arent eating a meal that takes 30 minutes to make. You said what insects in the wild eat is unimporant, so why is it so important what they eat in captivity?Until you find factual info on this topic then all of these debates are just mere opinions. |
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| 06/12/09 03:10pm |
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ColdBloodedAnimal View Profile |
Message To: ColdBloodedAnimal In reference to Message Id: 2021019 Are male veield chameleons usuallly skinny
Anecdotal evidence from one or even multiple users is not enough to deem something a fact. Just because it worked for you doesn’t mean it works for all. Furthermore, genetics dominate over nurture when dealing with what traits will be transferred to the offspring. Here’s the main two issues that stemmed this debate but when questioned were not addressed: Quote: Juluris: There is a noted higher rate of reptiles with kidney issues using gutloads such as cat/dog food and fish flakes. I would have to scan the web to find studies conducted. I know someone doing feeding studies now.
^I’d be interested in those studies still....You cannot just say "studies" without providing any. I can easily throw out the word scientific study and 99% of the forum would beleive the study actually exists when in reality it may not. I’m not doubting there is not a study but if you reference one in a argument you should be prepared to defend your argument with the study. Also, there are many flawed studies out there so you need to understand what your reading before you can make a conclusion. Quote: Jonas77: Crickets are not carnivores. We are what we eat, and crickets eating high protein catfood will render them stuffed with protein. It doesnt matter what the chameleon is (insectivore) if the insects it eats are no longer insects, or what natural insects would be stuffed with.
^Exactly. So if the insects are stuffed with exotic foods such as monkey chow, how is that any different then cat food? Moreover, how can you say that the protein found in cat or dog food is too much but then you offer the OP a recipe with items such as dry milk, monkey chow, egg yolk which are loaded with proteins as well? You guys are missing the point. You can’t just run around here telling people they are wrong just because you do something differently especially when you have no scientific data to prove either way is correct. |
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| 06/12/09 03:27pm |
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Jonas77 View Profile |
Message To: Jonas77 In reference to Message Id: 2021020 Are male veield chameleons usuallly skinny
Quote: How do you know monkey chow does not have chemicals in it like cat or dog food.
I dont, I have personally never seen "chemicals" as a problem. The recipe is also not written in stone, change the monkey chow to an ingredient you feel more comfortable with, that are easier to find, yet have somewhat the same properties. Quote: That diet is a tremendous hassle to find all of the ingredients.
Yup, noone said it would be easy to keep chameleons. I find it a hassle just to feed my cat, I still have to do it - its not about what we think is a hassle. Being difficult is no excuse, if you find its overwhelming, then this hobby is not for you. Quote: Im sure the insects in the wild where chameleons are found arent eating a meal that takes 30 minutes to make.
Actually, insects in nature eat things that take much longer to make. Werent you listening at your biology classes? Quote: You said what insects in the wild eat is unimportant, so why is it so important what they eat in captivity?
You misunderstood then. Its not important discussing what they do and dont eat in nature, considering we are not talking about feeding wild insects here. That is not to say that it is unimportant what they eat, not for wild chameleons anyway and not if we want to know what to mimic. Quote: Until you find factual info on this topic then all of these debates are just mere opinions.
This works both ways, I have to say the same for cat/dog food gutloading then. I have recommended articles at chameleonnews, I have offered my own experience in keeping chameleons for 15+ years, and I have used my knowledge in biology to try to make my point in this debate. Now I wipe my hands with this, I dont understand what "you" want. |
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| 06/12/09 04:02pm |
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Jonas77 View Profile |
Message To: Jonas77 In reference to Message Id: 2021029 Are male veield chameleons usuallly skinny
Just because the recipe contains protein you cant say its "equally bad" as catfood that is high in protein. We want protein, but in a limited fashion. Then there IS protein and protein, its a pretty broad word. Also, you are missing a point as well. You are also wrong when you say we cant tell people they are wrong. We can. One can actually know that something is wrong, even if one can not prove ones own point to be right. Just because noone have produced a scientific paper on the good effects of their gutload yet, one can still know what is wrong. There ARE scientific articles on the ill effect of high protein diets in reptiles, that much I am sure of. My point is this: Neither "side" can "proove" their points. Left is only the reasoning around it all, and I personally think there is a lot of good reasoning around a good gutload. There is a lot of trashtalking about whats bad with the other product, but two wrongs does not make a right. Since there is no "proof" all I can offer is to listen to the "big" people in the chameleon business, most if not all of them do use special gutload. If you dont want to try it, the fine. I just dont see a point in trying to smack-talk something you havent tried. |
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| 06/12/09 04:17pm |
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Blake258 View Profile |
Message To: Blake258 In reference to Message Id: 2021062 Are male veield chameleons usuallly skinny
http://www.innovapet.com/product_line.asp?id=2 I know no one said it would be easy to raise chameleons. BUT when you get nit picky about cat food over your homemade blend for a CRICKET it becomes a problem. I know raising chameleons is time consuming and some would deem it a "hassle" but I don’t have a problem with it because I love reptiles of all types. BUT crickets is a different thing, I’m not going to source all these exotic ingredients and slop them together for an insect. Hoping without any scientific research as coldbloodedanimal pointed out it will have any value to my reptile (no science to prove it). |
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| 06/12/09 04:41pm |
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ColdBloodedAnimal View Profile |
Message To: ColdBloodedAnimal In reference to Message Id: 2021078 Are male veield chameleons usuallly skinny
You still didn’t answer my question, and when you do I’ll address your points. What are your intentions of gutloading and what nutrients are you trying to superload the cricket with so that these might benefit your chameleon? |
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| 06/12/09 04:44pm |
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Blake258 View Profile |
Message To: Blake258 In reference to Message Id: 2017874 Are male veield chameleons usuallly skinny
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| 06/12/09 04:56pm |
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Blake258 View Profile |
Message To: Blake258 In reference to Message Id: 2017874 Are male veield chameleons usuallly skinny
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| 06/12/09 04:56pm |
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Julirs View Profile |
Message To: Julirs In reference to Message Id: 2021029 Are male veield chameleons usuallly skinny
Where in the world did anyone think of feeding Monkey Chow? I can’t imagine I am the only one that would find that a strange and unusual thought. Your feeders are only as good as what you are feeding them. Whoever said it doesn’t matter what you feed your feeders was dead wrong. The reason we supplement is with calcium is because most commercially available feeders have a poor calcium to phosphorous ratio. Gutloading with things like spinach has been proven to affect the calcium absorbtion process. There are all kinds of studies out there-just look for them. We cannot provide the natural environment nor the natural feeders in captivity. But how can anyone justify gutloading with things that are full of fillers and chemicals like commercially prepared chow. Flukers cricket food is not much better. Someone QUICK-explain to me how you can go wrong gutloading with naturally vitamin and nutrient not to mention moisture laden fruits and vegetables like Kale, Collards, sweet potatoes, etc???? Or is it only because you love to argue??? |
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| 06/12/09 04:56pm |
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Julirs View Profile |
Message To: Julirs In reference to Message Id: 2021088 Are male veield chameleons usuallly skinny
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| 06/12/09 05:04pm |
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Blake258 View Profile |
Message To: Blake258 In reference to Message Id: 2021092 Are male veield chameleons usuallly skinny
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| 06/12/09 05:10pm |
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