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Jbreddawg View Profile |
Message To: XKairos_hXc In reference to Message Id: 1703705 *sigh* uro woes
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| 04/16/08 04:17pm |
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XKairos_hXc View Profile |
Message To: XKairos_hXc In reference to Message Id: 1705625 *sigh* uro woes
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| 04/16/08 08:42pm |
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Uro_fan View Profile |
Message To: Uro_fan In reference to Message Id: 1706039 *sigh* uro woes
Quote: You think the log is the problem ?
Quote: No, I know it is. I removed it now and replaced it with a different hide.
Hmmmm… Why in the world would you think the hide is responsible for this animal hiding a lot? This could be the most spectacular hide in the world but if the animal is healthy, not under a lot of stress, and the enclosure conditions are correct, the animal is not going to choose to stay in the hide forever just because he likes it. Nope, I feel pretty confident in suggesting that it is not the hide that is causing your uromastyx to hide a lot. Unless of course it is getting physically stuck in the log and cannot get out. This of course would lead to excessive hiding. 
Some of your previous posts mention that the uromastyx was rather new in Feb, it was not in the best shape when you obtained it, and you are keeping it in a 40 gallon enclosure. You also refer to the animal playing, being good when you take it out of the enclosure, and you have mentioned things like poking the animal and pulling it from its hide. It is very likely that the animal is stressed, has not had time to properly acclimate, has some underlying physical condition, or the enclosure conditions are not adequate. Most likely a combination of more than one of these things. I guarantee you that if I took in a uromastyx that was not in the best physical condition and stressed it with some of the behaviors you mention, the animal would be hiding a lot. I know you stated that you do not handle the uromastyx much but you also mentioned removing it from its hide several times even after being told that this was not a wise thing to do. Go back to acclimation protocol and start over (no handling, give back the hide it felt secure in, let the animal hide, ANDget a fecal to the vet which you keep promising to do). I would also suggest upgrading to a larger enclosure if you have not already done so. |
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| 04/17/08 07:47am |
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XKairos_hXc View Profile |
Message To: XKairos_hXc In reference to Message Id: 1706379 *sigh* uro woes
Now why in the world would I think the hide responsible? As aforementioned it is made of cork and it’s thick, which doesn’t transmit heat very well. He doesn’t hide alot... He is up from 9a-330/500 playing around sleeps under his slate and gets up normally everyday. I mean seriously, I never once said he hides alot, this was a one time-ordeal and the FIRST time he was under the log. Then it happened again two weeks later. Even Doug over at deer fern farms said the Uro’s EXPECT the sun to wake them up. If they aren’t getting the heat through the hide or the light then they won’t. But I’m sure you’ve been doing this for over 20 years too. I removed him from his hide after he didn’t get up for 3 days (which he was under the cork log and this was the only time he had ever done it)... he looked up at me looked around and started running around and eating like normal. I touched "poked" him once when I got home because he was colorless, not moving, and not under his hide. Was I supposed to just leave him there? No, I wanted to make sure he was still alive and well. I mean really alot of people on this site are helpful others are just out to be , and that’s cool. I mean you’ve read so much about me why have you missed the part where I said I’m getting ready to order a new cage? I asked for advice and now I found the probably, so I appreciate you trying to pin point it on mis-treatement and exaggerate things from the past, but you aren’t here, you can’t see him and he’s 100% well. I’ll bet my last dollar that now that hide is removed it won’t happen again... Thanks again for your help |
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| 04/18/08 11:39am |
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XKairos_hXc View Profile |
Message To: XKairos_hXc In reference to Message Id: 1703705 *sigh* uro woes
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| 04/18/08 12:03pm |
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Uro_fan View Profile |
Message To: Uro_fan In reference to Message Id: 1707824 *sigh* uro woes
Quote: Even Doug over at deer fern farms said the Uro’s EXPECT the sun to wake them up. If they aren’t getting the heat through the hide or the light then they won’t.
Wonder how that light gets through several feet of tunnels (including any bends) over in Africa for those species that burrow? Granted, the hides stay relatively warm throughout the seasons but might only average 85 summer and low 70 winter. You have stated that your cool side is 80-85 during the day. I would suspect that within a couple hours of the lamps turning on that the cool side would be 80-85. You stated that your lights were coming on at 6:30am and the uromastyx was not exiting yet at 12. It is obvious from your photos that some light is getting to the uromastyx under the log. This means that the temperatures on the cool side is similar to some of the burrow temps and there is light reaching the uromastyx yet it is not exiting. I have uromastyx that prefer dark low hides (rock/slate) on the cool side that get extremely little light- far less than your log. Yet, some animals will instinctively exit the hide at the same time of the day before the cool side has even had time to reach full warmth. Some of these uromastyx will sluggishly make their way to the basking spot before the enclosure is up to proper temperatures. I have also had power outages that screwed up timers and have found a large number of my animals on a basking spot without any lights or heat. Doug’s statement that if light and heat are not present the uromastyx will not exit the hide doesn’t really explain these situations does it? Although Doug has been working with uromastyx longer than I have, I can almost guarantee that he has not invested as many hours of direct research into this genus that I have. I also am not aware of him studying his animals and behaviors including hundreds of hours of videotaping and logging. Doug has his hands full with a full time sales job with uromastyx (majority last I knew was imported farm sales) and exotic cats. I am certainly not suggesting that Doug does not know anything about uromastyx; I am just suggesting that he is not necessarily correct on everything uromastyx related.
Have you ever thought that just perhaps, the uromastyx views this hide as a secure location and perhaps it is not exiting due to a stressor of some sort and the fact that it feels secure in this specific hide? Why not test this little theory by placing the log hide on the warm side where it will get to higher temperatures and more light? I certainly would not remove the only hide that that animal may feel secure in. If I am correct, the uromastyx might hide a little more and run for the log when it sees movement but will eventually get back to a normal routine once it feels secure. What do you have to lose? Quote: But I’m sure you’ve been doing this for over 20 years too.
I do not need 20 years to tell me that a hide in a properly heated and lighted enclosure with a properly acclimated and healthy animal does not result in the animal staying in the hide enough that I feel a concern to post about it. It could be that your animal is stressed and still acclimating. Removing the security of its favorite hide will result in a setback to the acclimation process. Quote: I mean you’ve read so much about me why have you missed the part where I said I’m getting ready to order a new cage?
If I had a nickel for every good cage intention or claim to upgrade, I would be rich. Yes, I saw your claims that you will be upgrading but the reference to size was in direct relationship to the subject being discussed: a small enclosure during the time you are claiming that a log resulted in your uromastyx hiding more than you felt that it should. I just feel that something is triggering this uromastyx to hide more and it is my belief that it feels secure in this specific hide. If you believe Doug’s advice about the animal needing temperatures above the 80-85F (which is has now on the cool end) to exit this hide, move the log over to the warm side. The uromastyx will have light and higher temperatures so it should not be necessary to remove the log. Quote: I’ll bet my last dollar that now that hide is removed it won’t happen again...
But for what reason? If the animal were hiding more because this was the only secure hide it felt it had, wouldn’t you get the same exact results by removing the hide? Removing the hide does not necessarily give you the answers you need and you could be placing a lot more stress on the animal by removing a hide that provided a sense of security. |
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| 04/18/08 02:30pm |
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Packer View Profile |
Message To: Packer In reference to Message Id: 1707970 *sigh* uro woes
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| 04/18/08 06:10pm |
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XKairos_hXc View Profile |
Message To: XKairos_hXc In reference to Message Id: 1708239 *sigh* uro woes
He has only gone under it twice and he did like to bask on it. The fact is when a Uro is cold it sleeps hence if out of the cage for too long or if it escapes and only feels room temperature it will stay in one place and seem lifeless. The material and thickness of the log was very bad for this reason. He’s got a new hide that is actually more secure, but it’s not often that he sleeps on the cool side anyway. Again if this eliminates the problem then that is all that mattered. I could’ve left him in his log and maybe he wouldn’t have woken up for a week or two or ever, so it was my best judgement to remove him, he didn’t freak out nor did he do anything out of the normal. He still wakes up at 9 or before and runs around eats poops and basks until 3 or 4. So let’s say UF is correct and the log wasn’t the issue and now it never happens again, the problem is solved regardless... We all have our opinions and I respect those of others, I understand I am new to the business and it can make some people skeptical, but I don’t lack better judgement and I would never do anything to harm my Uro. So all is still well again in a month I’ll post back if he does it if not i’ll post back with the results of the fecal test. I understand we all have a concern for the well-being of the uro’s regardless of ownership, but I need you guys to realize not everything is in result of mis-care. Thanks again for all the help in this thread, I can’t wait for him to get bigger and do some comparison pics he’s already grown so much since I’ve gotten him! |
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| 04/19/08 03:55pm |
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Uro_fan View Profile |
Message To: Uro_fan In reference to Message Id: 1709160 *sigh* uro woes
Quote: UF is just too stubborn to admit that the log MAY be the problem
You are confusing stubbornness for my insistence on using logic and reasoning. Most people reading this thread can tell by looking at the photos that light gets to your uromastyx. I think most would agree that the temperature of the air under the open ended/porous hide should be up into the 80s (temps you previously gave for location) within several hours. Quote: no sense in jumpin to conclusions.
Didn’t stop you from doing just this and blaming a log. 
Quote: The fact is when a Uro is cold it sleeps
Wrong again. Most uromastyx become lethargic- they do not necessarily ‘sleep’. I do not view 80-85F as ‘cold’ or a temperature where the animal is too sluggish to exit the hide and neither do any of my 50+ uromastyx. Quote: The material and thickness of the log was very bad for this reason.
The log was made of a porous material and as already suggested, the temperatures within the log (open on both ends) should have been close to the temperature of the surrounding air within several hours. Quote: Again if this eliminates the problem then that is all that mattered.
You just do not get it. Who is to say there was a problem with the animal staying in the hide after previously being poked and prodded by you? (yes, I know- I only did it X amount of times blah, blah, blah) If this animal finally found a secure spot and decided to hide out for several days where it felt secure, then this could have been the first step to the animal properly acclimating. The scenario I give here is NOT a problem- removing the security of the hide would be. Quote: I could’ve left him in his log and maybe he wouldn’t have woken up for a week or two
And this would have signaled a problem other than the log and this problem should be addressed. Quote: or ever, so it was my best judgement to remove him
Your best judgment is based on no experience with the species you are making judgments about. It also does not seem to include listening to the advice you asked for on this forum. Quote: So let’s say UF is correct and the log wasn’t the issue and now it never happens again, the problem is solved regardless
Unless of course UF is right and the animal is stressed and the hide it felt secure in was removed and the ongoing stress continues to build and over time causes adverse issues. DOH!
Quote: We all have our opinions and I respect those of others
Admitting you have no experience in a field and suggesting you respect the advice of other while ignoring the advice means little. Quote: I understand I am new to the business and it can make some people skeptical, but I don’t lack better judgement
Here is what I do know about your better judgement: You asked for help. You were given several good suggestions including upgrading the 40-gallon enclosure you have been using for three months and getting a fecal done. As of today almost three weeks later, you have not followed through on the fecal or larger enclosure and have decided instead to blame a log and remove it from the enclosure. It was suggested that the animal might have felt secure in the log hide. You were given valid reasons that the log should remain in the enclosure and a sure way to test your little theory of the porous log not allowing light or heat against the theory that the animal simply felt secure in that specific hide. Although this little experiment would have cost you nothing, you refused to even try to test the two different theories which would have been in the best interest of the animal you are posting about . Instead, you post that you, with your lack of experience, will just use your best judgment and ignore the advice that you asked for. I think your judgment is lacking. It almost appears to me that you may have a somewhat selfish need to enjoy watching the animal frolic about even if it means taking the only place it felt secure so that you could enjoy the entertainment. Sorry, but not placing the log back into the warm end near the light where you know that heat and light would not have been an issue is somewhat irresponsible when a valid reason for keeping the log was made and could easily be tested. If I had an animal I cared about and there was a possibility that I could do something to make that animal feel less stressed and more secure, I certainly would be giving it a try. Quote: I understand we all have a concern for the well-being of the uro’s regardless of ownership, but I need you guys to realize not everything is in result of mis-care.
You are right, a lot of it is due to ignorance, lack of research, and a failure to listen to good advice. |
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| 04/19/08 05:16pm |
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XKairos_hXc View Profile |
Message To: XKairos_hXc In reference to Message Id: 1709231 *sigh* uro woes
You keep acting like me touching him was in connection to this problem or something? I mean seriously I touched my Uro, you never do that? You really like to be an and over-dramatic don’t you? You act as if tormented the thing. He has appeared to be acclimated for some time, he never shows and signs of stress or weird behavior, in the end what i think is weird ends ujp being normal. The advice I received on not removing him was after the fact... sorry, as well as your advice to try and put the log on the warm side and see what happens. It was already gone by that point. You may be right, but I don’t see any reasons for it to be stresed. It is in a secured location in the back of my room where no one goes, the only time I am close to the cage is to feed him and clean the cage. Again the advice was AFTER the fact. Alot of people coudn’t pinpoint what it was so I went with what made most sense to me, process of elimination always works. I left him for 3 days, it was getting to be a little bit too long IMO. It takes more then a few weeks to get a new cage... i was doing research I decided on the Oak Cage and they said that it would take until August to have one fabbed. So I started researching AP cages and Vision Cages and am leaning towards the AP after reading reviews, deciding on what options to select. I am not the only person in the world who has their Uro in a 40 gallon breeder. I have proper temp gradient and from my "lack of research" I read that it was okay to keep them in a 40 gallon for the first few months if they are young. Again I couldn’t test out both theories as the log was GONE, you did reply to the thread with that suggestion a good 3 weeks after it was posted. I’ve done my research I’ve considered everyone’s advice and in most cases I take it. You are making assumptions and being rude, you seem like a very knowledgable person in reading posts in other threads but it seems like you have a large ego to feed. If it works for you that’s great, but everyone is going to make mistakes and learn from them. I mean seriously? A selfish need to watch him frolic about? In most cases that would generally mean they are healthy and happy. So it techinically would be a self-less act for his well being, but whatever you say. I’m sure he will enjoy his new hide just as much if not more. I’m sure you were perfect when you started correct? I’m sorry I didn’t take advice that I received after making my decision. But it is what is. He is doing fine and he is healthy. I’m not here to get into a never-ending pissing match with you. So I’m done replying to you, it’s not accomplishing anything. Thanks for your advice, but please in the future approach it in a more kind sense, instead of over-dramaticizing things and throwingeverything out of context just to try and make your point look better and me worse. I don’t abuse, mis-treat, overhandle, or POKE my lizard. He gets up at 9a and runs around til 3-5p. His temps are great, he eats well, he uses the bathroom normally, he is a HEALTHY size has great color and is very active. I guess that’s what you get when you don’t properly care for your lizard. |
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| 04/19/08 05:44pm |
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Skullkeeper View Profile |
Message To: Skullkeeper In reference to Message Id: 1709267 *sigh* uro woes
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| 04/19/08 05:55pm |
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Uro_fan View Profile |
Message To: Uro_fan In reference to Message Id: 1709267 *sigh* uro woes
Quote: You keep acting like me touching him was in connection to this problem or something?
Of course I am. Some newly acquired uromastyx have a difficult time adjusting. Taking the animal out of the enclosure, petting it, touching it, poking it, lifting it out of a secure hide, taking it to a new location while on vacation… can all cause stress and lead to problems with the animal acclimating. I posted about this almost three weeks ago and have been making similar posts on this forum for four years. Quote: You may be right, but I don’t see any reasons for it to be stresed.
How about the fact that this is possibly an animal plucked from the wild and suddenly tossed into a little glass cage? How about the fact that this animal has been shifted from place to place several times including a recent five-day stint to your mom’s house? (If imported, an overseas trip would need to be added to this equation.) How about the fact that during all of this shifting and moving you have taken the animal out of the enclosure, are petting it, poking it and removing it from its hide? If the animal has parasites (which of course you have no way of knowing as you have not bothered to have the fecal done as promised several times), this would add quite a bit of stress. I could go on and on but what is the sense as you have not listened to any of the things posted about this in the past and are still making statements like you see no reason for the animal to be stressed. Do you seriously not see these how this animal could very well be stressed even after some of these things have been pointed out to you or are you just trying to find a reason (not a very good one) to ignore valid advice? Quote: Again the advice was AFTER the fact. Alot of people coudn’t pinpoint what it was so I went with what made most sense to me, process of elimination always works.
People gave you a lot of good ideas to try and you took the easy route by blaming a log. You stated three times at the end of March and first of April that you were going to have a fecal run the first week in April and yet here we are on April 20th and no fecal. You continued to lift the hide off the uromastyx even after being told this is not a good idea. AFTER being told the animal may view the hide as a secure location you blame the log and throw it out. A large enclosure was suggested on Feb 9 and you stated at least twice since then that your 40 gallon would be fine for a few months. Although you have posted about upgrading a couple times, it certainly does not appear that you have been actively pursuing this for two months. Ever hear the expression actions speak louder than words? This includes written words. Considering you stated that you wanted what was best for this uromastyx and money was not an issue, I am surprised that three months after acquiring the animal it is still in a 40-gallon glass container. Is my point that you need a new enclosure today? No, my point is that you claim no one could pin point anything for you and that two months later I see very little attempt on your part to take action on any of the valid suggestions made to you and actually taking opposite action by removing an item which you were previously informed might be providing a sense of security for the animal. Quote: Again I couldn’t test out both theories as the log was GONE, you did reply to the thread with that suggestion a good 3 weeks after it was posted.
Huh? I suggested on 4/1 that your uromastyx might view this log as secure hide. Here is the quote: your uromastyx is choosing to stay in the hide and has a reason for doing so. If this is due to stress, removing him from the security of a place he has chosen to hide only adds to that stress.” Two weeks later You post that it was the logs fault. On 4/14 you stated you were going to remove the log and on 4/17 I once again suggested that this is a mistake as the animal might feel a sense of security with this hide. I think implying that my reply on the log came three week after it was posted is quite a bit off the mark. Even so, you already had the input that your uromastyx might view this as a good secure hide so even if you felt that temperature or light might be a factor, you could have simply moved the log over to the warm area. You decided to toss the log out AFTER you had the information that the animal might be viewing the log as a secure location and removing him from it could ADD to his stress. Quote: If it works for you that’s great, but everyone is going to make mistakes and learn from them.
So at the expense of your uromastyx, lets throw $hit at the wall and see what sticks? Yes, everyone will make mistakes but asking for advice on this forum and following advice from seasoned people that may have already made mistakes is one way to prevent you from making those same mistakes. Capiche? Quote: I’m sure he will enjoy his new hide just as much if not more.
If he enjoys it just as much, I am sure you will be tossing it out the door. Quote: He is doing fine and he is healthy.
You have absolutely no clue or experience to judge the proper health or behavior of this animal. Some of the actions that you have been writing about could very well signal issues and you seem completely oblivious even after being informed of some of these things. Quote: I don’t abuse, mis-treat, overhandle, or POKE my lizard. He gets up at 9a and runs around til 3-5p. His temps are great, he eats well, he uses the bathroom normally, he is a HEALTHY size has great color and is very active. I guess that’s what you get when you don’t properly care for your lizard.
You started posting back on Feb 9th about issues with your uromastyx changing routine and not using a hide and continued with posts into April about how the uromastyx is not exiting its hide for days unless you remove it. You also posted about actions that could be signaling a problem such as the animal basking most of the day (as stated before, could signal temp issues or illness). In the last six weeks you have used statements such as: “I am worried”. “I am kind of nervous”. “I am a little concerned”… and now suddenly there has never been an issue other than a wicked log that created sleepiness. Hopefully, with all of the adverse conditions this animal is facing, it can somehow overcome the stress and any other potential issues it may be dealing with. Some uromastyx are extremely resilient and hopefully yours is one. I am sure that if the animal overcomes on its own whatever it is dealing with (such as stress or battling off parasites and keeping them in check) that you will of course claim victory and that there was never an issue other than a log. However, if within the next six months the animal goes downhill and does not make it, I am sure we will just see another post blaming an impaction. |
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| 04/20/08 09:08am |
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XKairos_hXc View Profile |
Message To: XKairos_hXc In reference to Message Id: 1703705 *sigh* uro woes
I called a couple of more vets and they all gave me the same story. I set an appointment for Tuesday with a Vet, who’s information I got from this site, and dropped off the sample today. They advised me that I wouldn’t be able to obtain the results until I brought him in for a check-up to start the records. Is this standard procedure for a first time I guess? Should I keep looking, I don’t really like the idea of taking him out of his surroundings and making the drive, obviously if he was ill or sick I would, but maybe this routine check-up would be a good thing so they can have them there. Anyway, just an update no weird behavior, I am placing a call to APcages today to order a 48x30x24 cage for him. I guess the main question is this an acceptable reason to bring take him out or should I keep searching for one that will just give me the results and prompt me on if there is an issue that i need to bring him in for. Thanks guys. |
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| 04/25/08 11:41am |
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Skullkeeper View Profile |
Message To: Skullkeeper In reference to Message Id: 1715907 *sigh* uro woes
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| 04/26/08 02:24pm |
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XKairos_hXc View Profile |
Message To: In reference to Message Id: 1716984 *sigh* uro woes
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| 04/26/08 02:36pm |
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